Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[David]

[QUOTE=spiral
Your last sentance should earn you points with the eggy landlord but thats just gauranteed the kukri he wanted so much hell never get. {I can now see why the last seller made sure he never got it either ,even for 12,000 pans. a full 6 times as many as I got it for} excuse me, must be late at night or something. Must be thinking out loud.

The factual point of greatest worth from the photos ive posted is all the figural examples with figural scabbards are clearly veiwed handle up.

An upside down, church, crucifxes & alter candels, are symbols of satanism as your 30 years of study will inform you. {Or do you say an upside down crucifix is how it should be?}[/QUOTE]

Well it must be later indeed, since i haven't the foggiest notion what you are on about in this first paragrah.
I am afraid that presenting 2 or 3 examples with the figural scabbards viewed handle up is hardly evidence that ALL figural scabbards are intended to be viewed this way. The only fact is that the few examples you have provided point this way. I still think that the church is oriented this way on your scabbard because it is the logical direction given the shape of the object depicted. It just makes sense that the steeple point should be the point of the scabbard. That is, however, merely opinion.
Since you harp on the years of my study, in my 30 yrs. of occult study i have never seen an upside down church used as a symbol of satanism. Certainly crosses have been used that way, but has already been pointed out, the inverse cross is also the cross of St. Peter, so it is merely a matter of perspective. The same can be said of the pentagram The owl is generally looked upon as a positive symbol in most western magical circles. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. Sigils and magickal or arcane alphabets and talismanic signs are more often used to empower ritual items. I see no such signs on any of these daggers.
If you look hard enough one can find 'satanists" everywhere. The church certain did a good job at it for centuries.

[spiral]

[QUOTE=David]. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. QUOTE]


Rather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down.

The innocents ones cant see... {or dont want to?}


Spiral

Dont mind about the eggy landlord, he knows, thats what matters.

[David]

[QUOTE=spiralRather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down.

The innocents ones cant see... {or dont want to?}
[/QUOTE]

Actually no Spiral, more rather like this. This is, of course, a modern ritual dagger, but it is based on a 19thC design.
As for being an innocent, that's pretty funny. If you really knew me you would no doubt think me to be one of your "satanists".

[spiral]

[QUOTE=David.
As for being an innocent, that's pretty funny. If you really knew me you would no doubt think me to be one of your "satanists". [/QUOTE]

My comment on Innocents were teasing.

i doubt if many arms collecters & dealers or indeed that many human biengs in the western world are realy that innocent.

Religous upbringing can leave some recognisable traits & beliefs on occasion though, despite ones rebelion against them.

Spiral

[katana]

[QUOTE=spiral]

Originally Posted by David

. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. QUOTE]


Rather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down.

Spiral

Spiral, if subtle symbolism is important.....to hide the daggers true purpose from the uninitiated........WHY are the INVERTED CROSSES so OBVIOUS....????

As regards the Pope sitting beneath an inverted cross......yes, it is ALL over the Web........but there are only 2 interpretations written about it.......the most common are the Conspirousy Theorists who cite there is only 'one meaning' and that is it is a Satanic symbol and that the Pope could be the 'Anti-Christ'. They have failed to research the Inverted Cross, if they did they would discover there is also St Peter's Cross , which to Catholics is a sign of 'humility' and 'unworthiness'.....a case of seeing what you want to see ???

Quote Wikipedia

The Alexandrian scholar Origen is the first to report that St. Peter 'was crucified head downward, for he had asked that he might suffer in this way'. Some Catholics use this cross as a symbol of humility and unworthiness in comparison to Christ.
It is also often associated with Satanism. Aleister Crowley believed this cross to be a symbol of inverted grace, or falling away from Christ's grace. As a result, this symbol has become very popular within the heavy metal, black metal and death metal music scenes (notably, members of bands such as Danzig, Deicide, and Gorgoroth have adorned themselves with large inverted cross pendants)
During the late Pope John Paul II's visit to Israel, a picture of him with a backdrop of St. Peter's cross was widely circulated on the Internet, propagating the belief of some that the Catholic Church is associated with Satanism. In fact the photograph is related to the Catholic tradition that St. Peter was martyred in Rome (and as Catholic tradition views the Pope as the successor of Peter, it is a logical symbol for the Roman Pontiff). The inverted cross is also one of the traditional symbols used by Petrine Orthodox Sebomenoi

[Tim Simmons]

I feel compelled to show how these classical and occult images are still in use today on prestige artifacts. These two could collect sacrificial blood except they were made for the worshipful company of lightmongers. Casting, chasing tools and methods have not changed in millennium. As for a spirtual quest I find just picking my feet enough .

[katana]

I believe that ‘Satanic’ daggers exist but I have a few observations….

Firstly, a dagger used in Black Magic Rites would surely be greatly revered by the practitioners. As the dagger is continually used wouldn’t the ‘believers’ feel that the dagger would increasingly become imbued with ‘evil power’ and its significance increase? If so, why would these daggers be available to collectors? These could be likened to ‘Religious Relics’ …..afterall Satanism IS a RELIGION in true context.

Secondly, many Occult sects evolved late 17th early 18th Century…..as has been pointed out …usually involving the richer sections of society. However, few were truly ‘Satanic’ , most involved themselves in drunkenness, drug taking and sexual orgies. Practices that were considered anti-Christian. Bearing in mind the power of the Church, its wealth and its involvement in politics…..these people were the ‘back-lash’ to the overwhelming control of the Church. A ‘Rock and Roll’ club for Gentlemen . Their actions more ‘Animalistic’ (and Anti-establishmental) than ‘Satanic’ and , IMHO any daggers attributed to this type of ‘club’…..should be viewed in the same context of ‘Freemason Paraphernalia.'

Thirdly, I pointed out the symbolism of the crucifix hilt, and you (Spiral) feel the cross guard is a functional necessity. Why? If the dagger is more symbolic and used in a Ritual (i.e. like a Phurba) …the guard is unnecessary. If the dagger is used in sacrifice…..the ‘offering’ would be usually incapacitated (bound or drugged) the wielder of the dagger could ‘pick his spot’ avoiding bone etc . If the throat is cut….the more usual method of sacrifice , the cross guard of a dagger would ‘get in the way’ ….? Surely Satanists would avoid having such a prominent Christian Symbol involved with their Rituals ?



I think that your dagger is a lovely piece of work. The casting is clean and crisp, the blade looks great……I still maintain that this is a themed dagger , if endowed with symbolism…I believe that it is a ‘political statement’ about the Church /Society at that time. I am not a Religious person but I do consider myself ‘Spiritual’, I am not in denial about the possibilities of ‘true’ satanistic daggers. This is a case of Yin and Yang………..if there is a good God there must be an equally powerful ‘evil’ god….such is the belief systems of Man kind since humanity ‘found’ religion.

[spiral]

[QUOTE=katana]

Originally Posted by spiral

Spiral, if subtle symbolism is important.....to hide the daggers true purpose from the uninitiated........WHY are the INVERTED CROSSES so OBVIOUS....????

As regards the Pope sitting beneath an inverted cross......yes, it is ALL over the Web........but there are only 2 interpretations written about it.......the most common are the Conspirousy Theorists who cite there is only 'one meaning' and that is it is a Satanic symbol and that the Pope could be the 'Anti-Christ'. They have failed to research the Inverted Cross, if they did they would discover there is also St Peter's Cross , which to Catholics is a sign of 'humility' and 'unworthiness'.....a case of seeing what you want to see ???

Quote Wikipedia

The Alexandrian scholar Origen is the first to report that St. Peter 'was crucified head downward, for he had asked that he might suffer in this way'. Some Catholics use this cross as a symbol of humility and unworthiness in comparison to Christ.
It is also often associated with Satanism. Aleister Crowley believed this cross to be a symbol of inverted grace, or falling away from Christ's grace. As a result, this symbol has become very popular within the heavy metal, black metal and death metal music scenes (notably, members of bands such as Danzig, Deicide, and Gorgoroth have adorned themselves with large inverted cross pendants)
During the late Pope John Paul II's visit to Israel, a picture of him with a backdrop of St. Peter's cross was widely circulated on the Internet, propagating the belief of some that the Catholic Church is associated with Satanism. In fact the photograph is related to the Catholic tradition that St. Peter was martyred in Rome (and as Catholic tradition views the Pope as the successor of Peter, it is a logical symbol for the Roman Pontiff). The inverted cross is also one of the traditional symbols used by Petrine Orthodox Sebomenoi

Subtle enough that the brotherhood of ethnographic arms collectors can not see it.


Wikpedia had all their satanist stuff rewritten as well. There all misunderstood nice boys realy! its posted on there by any one who wishes! & gets thier friends to agree its hardly a serious political resource.

& guess what the The original Alexandrian Origen reports can not be found, it is a mere reinterpritation of them recycled. The were lost centurys ago.

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Great discourse guys! Lots of excellent observations, uh, and opinions!
As much as I have resisted, I must note here that I disagree on Spiral's comments on opinions, especially the implication that they are worthless. Naturally, as he has noted, presentation of support lends considerably more credibility to such observations. However, in many cases even opinions expressed as perspective of individuals not necessarily familiar or studied on a specific topic may on occasion present a direction in investigation that may have been overlooked. We have all experienced the Occams Razor 'syndrome' and the familiar 'hoofbeats' axiom....upon hearing them, one does not instantly look for a zebra!

I think that Yannis' original observations, and his subsequent additions present excellent support for the 19th century theme dagger, and that the other posts have presented excellent support for the Esmeralda figure and Notre Dame theme. Katana has continued to present some outstanding literary and artistic detection in his observations that in my 'opinion' carry substantial plausibility.

In discussions on such arcane topics as occult esoterica, it must be realized that the degree of subjectivity in observations theorizing symbolism can only be described as exceptional. In the case of trying to determine any sort of standardization in the method of viewing scabbards or overall motif of edged weapons in order to contrive certain symbolism seems in 'my opinion' specious, as it would seem that no such order must exist. Naturally by stating that, I must recognize that my own comment suggesting certain viewing upright of scabbards was based on something read 'in passim' and must be regarded as a specious comment as well at this point. I actually believe my thought was prompted by a passage possibly during research on traditional or ceremonial use of swords but honestly cannot recall.

Obviously most of what has been discussed here concerns perception, and certainly as has been shown with observations on upside down crosses, churches, sacrificial goats etc. one can see the motif on this dagger as sinister or as has been described, 'classical'. During the 18th century there were a great deal of mystical, metaphysical, cabalistic, Masonic symbolisms that materialized on weapons markings and decorative elements. The development of secret orders and societies gained popularity along with occultism and other arcane pursuits, all leading to certain forms of regalia including most likely weapons as discussed and shown here, well into the 19th century and clearly into out own times. Since such secrecy in the meanings and symbolism of much of this has been essentially lost to the ages, and subsequent writings and detail have been often discredited, we can typically only speculate what may have been intended.

"...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen
and thinking what nobody has thought."
-Albert von Szent-Gyorgy

I think all of the opinions here are exceptionally valuable concerning this weapon, and well represent the comprehensive knowledge of those who post here on even the most esoteric of topics. I know I've learned a lot here!
Thanks guys

All best regards,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Spiral!

Some more opinions...followed by the start of some cold, hard facts..

Looking at your priestess/Esmeralda figure, she seems rather sensual and "nice" doesn't she? I mean a good person caressing her pet goat. She certainly doesn't bear the look of a crazed hooded priestess about to slaughter an animal...look at the paintings of the Sacrifice of Isaac (is it?) by Abraham, he is tied and unable to move the same for the lamb he slaughters instead, tied animal. Even the sacrifices of goats and bulls by Nepalis are tied and held so as not to move. This here goat is actually fawning all over her would be executioner. If the figure were grasping the dagger at her waist then I would agree she could be about to commit sacrifice but otherwise...

Now the facts are coming...just saw a pic of an early "gothic dagger" in the Reubell Collection (Bashford, Dean. The Reubell Collection of Court Swords and Early Daggers, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, Vol. 21, No. 10. (1926): 228-233) the scabbard is heavily carved and sculpted horizontally so the dagger is held horizontally in this case, obviously for display I think. Doesn't have the figural hilt, which in this case looks Swiss.
I've also found the index of a catalogue in my library with an illustrated ornamented early gothic dagger. Will get it in a few hours and scan pics, that should provide some eyecandy and facts.

That's John Powell behind you isn't it? The Nahan Sirmoor looks beautiful in hand, that's some niiice khukri
Emanuel

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Spiral!

Some more opinions...followed by the start of some cold, hard facts..

Looking at your priestess/Esmeralda figure, she seems rather sensual and "nice" doesn't she? I mean a good person caressing her pet goat. She certainly doesn't bear the look of a crazed hooded priestess about to slaughter an animal...look at the paintings of the Sacrifice of Isaac (is it?) by Abraham, he is tied and unable to move the same for the lamb he slaughters instead, tied animal. Even the sacrifices of goats and bulls by Nepalis are tied and held so as not to move. This here goat is actually fawning all over her would be executioner. If the figure were grasping the dagger at her waist then I would agree she could be about to commit sacrifice but otherwise...

Now the facts are coming...just saw a pic of an early "gothic dagger" in the Reubell Collection (Bashford, Dean. The Reubell Collection of Court Swords and Early Daggers, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, Vol. 21, No. 10. (1926): 228-233) the scabbard is heavily carved and sculpted horizontally so the dagger is held horizontally in this case, obviously for display I think. Doesn't have the figural hilt, which in this case looks Swiss.
I've also found the index of a catalogue in my library with an illustrated ornamented early gothic dagger. Will get it in a few hours and scan pics, that should provide some eyecandy and facts.

That's John Powell behind you isn't it? The Nahan Sirmoor looks beautiful in hand, that's some niiice khukri
Emanuel

thankyou for trying Manolo, & the photo, as I said earlier the most valid points of evidence would come from 19th century cast figural handled pieces.

as intresting as the dagger you show is it clearly is not a cast figural handled 19th century piece. So even if i could make out the scabbard figures is still not the type of knife in questian. I realise you recognise & mentian that.

I have a figurative handled stassknive by Louen, Norways most estemed church carver & 19th century knife maker, but although , the scabbard would illustrate my point yet again , I havent shown it as evidence as the handle although figual is carved hollywood , not cast.

i look forward to your pictures of 19th century cast figural handles.

Not all the animals behead in Nepal are tied & held, some are certanly particularily bulls to allow the kukri or kora aim to fall between the vertabrae rather than a direct hit in the middle of the bone. {Ive been there & seen it done.}

But if you watch muslims slaughter animals for Halal meat they just do the animals throat , some can even do it while petting the animal to lull it into a sense of security & or treat it with respect {Ive seen this done too, intrestingly enough in Sunny England by a Tunisean who has regard & respect for the animals he raises & kills to feed his family.}


The picture does show John Powell & an unamed forumite from here who JP wouldnt sell that kukri to for $12000, on principle because he thought it should come to an approriate home for such a piece for, a tiny fraction of that sum. {I do have written permision to post that forumites photo & the price discussed is already in the public domain on the internet.}

its just a private joke realy.


Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Great discourse guys! Lots of excellent observations, uh, and opinions!
As much as I have resisted, I must note here that I disagree on Spiral's comments on opinions, especially the implication that they are worthless. Naturally, as he has noted, presentation of support lends considerably more credibility to such observations. However, in many cases even opinions expressed as perspective of individuals not necessarily familiar or studied on a specific topic may on occasion present a direction in investigation that may have been overlooked. We have all experienced the Occams Razor 'syndrome' and the familiar 'hoofbeats' axiom....upon hearing them, one does not instantly look for a zebra!

I think that Yannis' original observations, and his subsequent additions present excellent support for the 19th century theme dagger, and that the other posts have presented excellent support for the Esmeralda figure and Notre Dame theme. Katana has continued to present some outstanding literary and artistic detection in his observations that in my 'opinion' carry substantial plausibility.

In discussions on such arcane topics as occult esoterica, it must be realized that the degree of subjectivity in observations theorizing symbolism can only be described as exceptional. In the case of trying to determine any sort of standardization in the method of viewing scabbards or overall motif of edged weapons in order to contrive certain symbolism seems in 'my opinion' specious, as it would seem that no such order must exist. Naturally by stating that, I must recognize that my own comment suggesting certain viewing upright of scabbards was based on something read 'in passim' and must be regarded as a specious comment as well at this point. I actually believe my thought was prompted by a passage possibly during research on traditional or ceremonial use of swords but honestly cannot recall.

Obviously most of what has been discussed here concerns perception, and certainly as has been shown with observations on upside down crosses, churches, sacrificial goats etc. one can see the motif on this dagger as sinister or as has been described, 'classical'. During the 18th century there were a great deal of mystical, metaphysical, cabalistic, Masonic symbolisms that materialized on weapons markings and decorative elements. The development of secret orders and societies gained popularity along with occultism and other arcane pursuits, all leading to certain forms of regalia including most likely weapons as discussed and shown here, well into the 19th century and clearly into out own times. Since such secrecy in the meanings and symbolism of much of this has been essentially lost to the ages, and subsequent writings and detail have been often discredited, we can typically only speculate what may have been intended.

"...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen
and thinking what nobody has thought."
-Albert von Szent-Gyorgy

I think all of the opinions here are exceptionally valuable concerning this weapon, and well represent the comprehensive knowledge of those who post here on even the most esoteric of topics. I know I've learned a lot here!
Thanks guys

All best regards,
Jim

I agrre opinions are worthwhile in a discusian, I just recognise in science they are & law they are niether empirical evidence nor expert oppinion. {in US legal terms.}

I agree the point about Esmerelda could have some validity. As I stated to Katana earlier post.

Spiral