Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

David · 9th January 2007, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Bill I know arthames are used in wiccan and some celtic ritual now but was not the dagger used for satanic ritual also called an arthame, but I could be totally wrong on that, again I need to check LaVey or Aleister Crowley

Despite relishing in being called the "Great Beast" there is nothing in the writings of Crowley which leads me to believe he was in any way a satanist. LaVey was a self-proclaimed modern satanist whose practice was pretty much a modern invention. I doubt you will find much useful info in his writings. His rituals were based on ritual lodge magick of the 19thC (the Golden Dawn) so it is likely you would find the use of a dagger in them, but it hardly points to any satanic origin. The stories of "black masses" mostly come from a Christian perspective, making the stories of these early "satanists" highly suspect. Any claim made by modern satanists to knowledge of practicing the "authentic" black mass is sketchy at best.
The use of a dagger as an item in ritual magick really came into vogue in 19thC lodge magick, where a specific magickal weapon is assigned to each of the 4 elements of fire, water, air and earth, the dagger/sword belonging to the element of air. The Golden Dawn magicians created a magickal philosophy, based on Christianity, Qabalistic thought, Rosicrusian writings from the 17thC and Eastern philosophies. Gerald Gardner (once a member of the G.D. and a student of Crowley), known as the father of modern Wicca (and interestingly the author of The Kris and other Malay Weapons) continued the elemental importance of the dagger when he invented modern Wicca, changing it's attribution to fire instead of air. In all probability his experiences with the keris in Indonesia was important in forming his theories on the athame's importance in the Wiccan religion. I have serious doubts that the dagger had the same kind of intellectual importance in early (pre-Golden Dawn) Western magickal societies. The dagger probably had a more practical purpose, to be used in animal sacrifice. Probably a special dagger was used, but because i don't think it was assigned the same intellectual importance the latter occultists gave it i wonder if anything as specifically designed as the dagger presented here would have been created back in the day for such a purpose. So if there are such things as "satanic" daggers i doubt they are much more than a century old.

RhysMichael · 9th January 2007, 03:11 AM

Thanks for the information on the term Arthame. I was mistaken to use that term then.

It is true the writings of the 1800's are said tell vitually nothing of the ritual of the black mass and are totally from the perpective of the church. And yes many of the confessions during this time should be considered suspect or fabrications, I personally however see satanism as a natural course that rebellion to the church could take and the more restrictive the church the more appealing satanism would be to some people.

My comment on the monstrous and tormented faces on cherubs above are also in line with your comment "The church used to love to show torment to scare it's paritioners into being good." There is a tudor home near here that was brought over from england and reassembled here. It has historical furniture and some of the beds have such features right where you would have to look at them as you sleep.

An interesting subject
Thanks

David · 9th January 2007, 03:25 AM

Then again, the tormented faces could refer to gargoyles of Notre Dame or to the Hunchback himself.
I dug these images up. sorry they are so small.

spiral · 9th January 2007, 03:57 AM

Thanks David, Rhysmichael interesting points.

I just found this online passage which may be of intrest?

The first satanic cult which possibly existed was operated by Catherine La Voisin at the Court of the French monarch Louis XIV. Although some historians are skeptical, the documents of the inquiry by Nicholas de la Reynie, the Police Chief of the king -- who was not a particularly religious man but a rather cold and stubborn policeman -- published by the 19th century historian François Ravaisson-Mollien, make a persuasive case for the celebration of "Black Masses" (the term was coined by La Voisin herself) at the Court of Louis XIV. "Black Masses" were described as rituals mocking the Roman Catholic Mass, in which Catholic hosts were desecrated through sex rituals and children were occasionally sacrificed to the Devil in order to obtain power and love for the wealthy customers of La Voisin [2]. La Reynie's police effectively destroyed the cult, but the emerging press made the incident infamous for decades in Europe and copycat imitations surfaced during the 18th century and during the French Revolution. These episodes were connected by pious Catholic authors to the Revolution itself, which they believed had been masterminded by anti-Catholic Satanists.

The "gargoyle heads" as called under a lens are clearly not Gargoyles , but human faces one dejected & unhappy the other covered in boils, both wear Jewish or I would say more likely bishops skull caps.

I understand French & German satanist knives are well recorded from at least in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century. But certanly many are later.

Intresting images David, scenes of goat sacrifice with dagger & pan from "the devil rides out" seem more in keeping with such a clearly potentialy lethal design of blade.

Spiral

David · 9th January 2007, 04:34 AM

[QUOTE=spiralI understand French & German satanist knives are well recorded from at least in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century. But certanly many are later.l[/QUOTE]

Spiral, why "certainly"? I am not sure what you are basing this assuption on. Have you seen or do you have any links to photos of "satanic" blades that pre-date the late 19thC.

I am well aware of the stories of Catherine La Voisin, but much of her legend is just that and beyond any definable fact. She apparently claimed to have sacrificed 2500 children, but there was hardly a rash of missing children in her area during her run in France. The 'black mass" is not necessarily a satanic thing, it is just a rebelious anti-Christian thing. It doesn't necessarily require the belief in Satan as one's god nor the evil doings such as child sacrifice that the stories of satanism would have one believe were common practice for these cults. As i stated earlier "satanic" is a loaded term that is probably best left behind.
This could still be meant as a ritual weapon i am leaning more towards the Hunchback attribution.

Emanuel · 9th January 2007, 04:45 AM

Hi Spiral, cool knife.

I think the "Huntchback of Notre-Dame" link is quite strong. The church is a stylized depiction of Notre-Dame itself if you compare with David's picture and others: Three portals on the first level, one rose window in the central bay flanked by twin towers each with a two-lancet window within a blind arch on the second. The third level features a ballustrade in the central bay and two thin rectangular windows in each adjacent tower. These towers once had peaked roofs if I recall correctly and the tall roof in the middle is actually the spire above the crossing the church as it would be seen from the front. And the figure is the spitting image of Esmeralda, down to the locket with her baby shoe. The figures on the ends of the guard could be the huntchback himself and Dom Frolo, the priest who covetted Esmeralda. I guess a real romantic put the dagger together.

Emanuel

spiral · 9th January 2007, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi Spiral, cool knife.

I think the "Huntchback of Notre-Dame" link is quite strong. The church is a stylized depiction of Notre-Dame itself if you compare with David's picture and others: Three portals on the first level, one rose window in the central bay flanked by twin towers each with a two-lancet window within a blind arch on the second. The third level features a ballustrade in the central bay and two thin rectangular windows in each adjacent tower. These towers once had peaked roofs if I recall correctly and the tall roof in the middle is actually the spire above the crossing the church as it would be seen from the front. And the figure is the spitting image of Esmeralda, down to the locket with her baby shoe. The figures on the ends of the guard could be the huntchback himself and Dom Frolo, the priest who covetted Esmeralda. I guess a real romantic put the dagger together.

Emanuel

Thankyou Manolo, Having spent days looking at photos of European churches & cathedrals online & having prioviosly visited Notre Damne , I agree the scabbards appearance shows many similarities, but if you compare it to many French & some Scandanavien,German & Swiss churches you will see many other similarities.

For instance Some one spent many hours chasing a particilar tile or shingle shape on the roof of this scabbards, which obviously doesnt match Notre Damn.

When one looks for Similarities in Churches they are easy to find, to be objective one needs to look for the differences as well.

Spiral

spiral · 9th January 2007, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, why "certainly"? I am not sure what you are basing this assuption on. Have you seen or do you have any links to photos of "satanic" blades that pre-date the late 19thC.

As i stated earlier "satanic" is a loaded term that is probably best left behind.
This could still be meant as a ritual weapon i am leaning more towards the Hunchback attribution.

David, In Archaological, calander & historical terms "later" means more recently, not older.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2007, 04:48 AM

Yikes, I had no idea there was such knowledge on the 'black arts' here!!

Scary stuff!!
Actually we have had discussions on these esoteric knives termed 'athame' about seven years ago, and discussions got pretty interesting. The term athame is thought to possibly derive from 'attame' (Fr.=to cut or pierce) and it is noted that 'athe' (Gk.=Godless), however there is no agreed upon etymological reference as far as I know.
Interestingly the variant term 'arthame' seems to derive from the term used to refer to the knife in a 1930's horror movie "The Master of Crabs" !
(I'm still choking on dust from dragging out these old notes from those discussions years ago!

Apparantly the concept of the athame is ceremonial, and supposedly its use is much like that of the Tibetan phurbu in ethereal sense. It is theoretically an extension of self and used to direct the flow of energy or will, to invoke or banish. It is used to guide energy from self to the circle etc. and so on in the complexities of these wiccan ceremonies. Naturally in earlier times there is likely some sacrificial use implicated, but those situations are avoided in most explanatory information.

As mentioned, I had noted that I had thought these decorated scabbards were to be viewed point up, but must admit that although I had seen some reference somewhere with comments to that effect concerning looking at the sword, I honestly cannot relocate that item. Actually, I simply considered the structure of the church and obviously the doors had to be shown at the wider part of the scabbard, while the peak of the church would narrow toward the tip or point. It would seem silly to think that the doors would be seen upside down, on the roof ?(reminds me of the kids game with interlocked fingers about the church and steeple, of course I always got it wrong and my people were on the roof!!

Also, in discussions of the sword, the blade is often termed the 'root' of the blade, thus at the hand, and grows upward. In edged weapon esoterica, the Indian katar is often decorated with the 'kundalini' flame, which originates at the root of the blade, and burns upward, thus the blade would be viewed point upward. I believe these were the basis of my comment.

In finally looking at the Holbein daggers I mentioned, the decoration is shown in linear, that is viewed sideways ,so it would seem there is no set manner in viewing a scabbard as I had suggested. I apologize for my assumption and for the unsupported statement.

Returning to the dagger, it seems that about mid 16th century, decorative sheath designs began to become popular, most notably the Holbein examples I have mentioned. Apparantly Hans Holbein (the younger) published his book "The Dance of Death" in Lyons c.1523, and created scabbards with macabre theme based on his drawings. Later other examples took scenes from Roman and Swiss history as well as Old Testament themes. It would seem that this decorative theme motif on daggers and sheaths extended through Europe, and this example, though certainly much later of course, is carrying out its theme from literary sources in the same manner.

Best regards,
Jim

Emanuel · 9th January 2007, 04:56 AM

Jim, David and RhysMichael, fantastic posts! You got me reading all about Wiccans now

I wonder how much of the witch craze of the 16th-17th centuries was based on actual witch/satanic convents and how much on poor old women who knew a great deal of botany and medicine.
Regards,
Emanuel

spiral · 9th January 2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Yikes, I had no idea there was such knowledge on the 'black arts' here!!

Scary stuff!!

As mentioned, I had noted that I had thought these decorated scabbards were to be viewed point up, but must admit that although I had seen some reference somewhere with comments to that effect concerning looking at the sword, I honestly cannot relocate that item. Actually, I simply considered the structure of the church and obviously the doors had to be shown at the wider part of the scabbard, while the peak of the church would narrow toward the tip or point. It would seem silly to think that the doors would be seen upside down, on the roof ?(reminds me of the kids game with interlocked fingers about the church and steeple, of course I always got it wrong and my people were on the roof!!

Also, in discussions of the sword, the blade is often termed the 'root' of the blade, thus at the hand, and grows upward. In edged weapon esoterica, the Indian katar is often decorated with the 'kundalini' flame, which originates at the root of the blade, and burns upward, thus the blade would be viewed point upward. I believe these were the basis of my comment.

In finally looking at the Holbein daggers I mentioned, the decoration is shown in linear, that is viewed sideways ,so it would seem there is no set manner in viewing a scabbard as I had suggested. I apologize for my assumption and for the unsupported statement.

Returning to the dagger, it seems that about mid 16th century, decorative sheath designs began to become popular, most notably the Holbein examples I have mentioned. Apparantly Hans Holbein (the younger) published his book "The Dance of Death" in Lyons c.1523, and created scabbards with macabre theme based on his drawings. Later other examples took scenes from Roman and Swiss history as well as Old Testament themes. It would seem that this decorative theme motif on daggers and sheaths extended through Europe, and this example, though certainly much later of course, is carrying out its theme from literary sources in the same manner.

Best regards,
Jim

Thankyou Jim, intresting stuff! Thankyou for taking the time.

Although the blade is liklely to be originaly from The Holbien period, i am sure the scabbord & handle are later.

The closet things I can find {as mentioned} in exotic cast handle pieces, is in the wallace collection that was a gift from Napolean III to the 4th Marques in 1860.

& the of course the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000.

Which shows the satanic motifs on the scabbard the right way up when the figural handle is upright. {which after all seems the logical way to study a figural piece.} But the signs of Liberty upside down.

Both of which are clearly veiwed handle upright.

For Wolviex & others who clearly havent seen such similar things heres 2 other examples.

Another spiecimien,

From Liongate Arms & armour. http://www.antiqueswords.com/mw57.htm

& a "later" example. {Which means more recently for those who were unaware.

}

Spiral

David · 9th January 2007, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

& a "later" example. {Which means more recently for those who were unaware.

}

Spiral, really no need for you to continue to rub this in. It was late when i responded and i simply misread you. One remark i can laugh with you, the second is unnecessary.
Thanks for the photos of these beautifully crafted daggers. I do question the assumption (not just on your part) that any dagger depicting the devil is necessarily a satanic ritual tool used in some dark rite. Sometimes art is just art. I think dealers are quick to put such a tag on these items because the concept of "evil" fascinates many and they think (correctly) that the items will command higher prices. Blades like the last one, IMO, have no distinct satanic symbolism. Skulls and snakes do not necessarily point to satanism. Skulls and skeletal forms have been used in art by many cultures over the centuries and are not necessarially negative images. Snakes aren't either for that matter and in many cases signify life and regeneration. The skull is a very common Mason symbol for one.
The inverted liberty torch is very interesting in your first example, but i wonder if it doesn't have more of a political reference than a spiritual one. It's placement between a winged caduseus legged demon and an owl, a symbol of wisdom is very intriguing. It would be nice to see some closer images of this. Doesn't look like it's seen much use though.

Bill M · 10th January 2007, 01:22 PM

My wife Anne just woke up and we read this post together. Having just seen the "Da Vinci Code" on DVD she decided

that the woman is Sophia (Goddess of Wisdom and therefore Owls) about to sacrifice the male goat (Pan) to continue her bloodline.

I suggested that the Pan she (Anne) should be studying is the one to fry / sacrifice the Aeytheric Egg, or universal Ovum over easy for breakfast!

It is early in the morning here.

"Io Pan, Io Pan, Io Pan. Pan! Pan! Pan!" (Say it slowly, keep it Holy) -- A.Crowley

David · 11th January 2007, 02:05 PM

Thanks Wolviex, that just about nails it for me. This last dagger you have presented shows tha tfigurative daggers were being made at the time that illustrated literary themes. probably the creator of Spirals dagger found the title "Hunchback of Notre Dame" a bit to long to place on the blade.

I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature. Death is a fact of life and i see nothing evil about images of skulls or skeletal forms. Snakes i have always seen as a postive symbol as they are in most cultures around the world. Owls we have discussed. Images of winged and/or horned demons can be seen in many different ways. The images of Pan and the Green Man were turned into images of the Devil by the church. Very early images of some angels are also horned. The horn is generally seen as a sign of power. Jews blow the shofar. Horn is highly prized by many cultures for a reason. My point is that evil is really in the eyes of the beholder here. Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere. It makes this dagger more valuable to him to think it was once owned by one. Frankly i find it to be very interesting regardless.

There are certainly other daggers shown in this thread that are much more obviously occult. But an assumption that they are therefore "satanic" in intent can only be made by those who lack a deeper understanding of occult matters. Occult matters are by their very nature hidden and often dark, in that they deal with a side of nature that is not usually embraced by the general public. People tend to fear what they don't understand. That doesn't necesarily make it evil.
Wolviex supports my thought that these occult daggers were most probably meant for show, or in some cases for the use of tracing sigils as a symbolic weapon of air in lodge style ceremonial magick. I seriously doubt they were ever employed as a means of sacrifice, animal or otherwise.

9th January 2007, 03:25 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,220	Then again, the tormented faces could refer to gargoyles of Notre Dame or to the Hunchback himself. I dug these images up. sorry they are so small. Attached Images

9th January 2007, 04:45 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Spiral, cool knife. I think the "Huntchback of Notre-Dame" link is quite strong. The church is a stylized depiction of Notre-Dame itself if you compare with David's picture and others: Three portals on the first level, one rose window in the central bay flanked by twin towers each with a two-lancet window within a blind arch on the second. The third level features a ballustrade in the central bay and two thin rectangular windows in each adjacent tower. These towers once had peaked roofs if I recall correctly and the tall roof in the middle is actually the spire above the crossing the church as it would be seen from the front. And the figure is the spitting image of Esmeralda, down to the locket with her baby shoe. The figures on the ends of the guard could be the huntchback himself and Dom Frolo, the priest who covetted Esmeralda. I guess a real romantic put the dagger together. Emanuel Attached Images

9th January 2007, 03:11 AM	#2
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Thanks for the information on the term Arthame. I was mistaken to use that term then. It is true the writings of the 1800's are said tell vitually nothing of the ritual of the black mass and are totally from the perpective of the church. And yes many of the confessions during this time should be considered suspect or fabrications, I personally however see satanism as a natural course that rebellion to the church could take and the more restrictive the church the more appealing satanism would be to some people. My comment on the monstrous and tormented faces on cherubs above are also in line with your comment "The church used to love to show torment to scare it's paritioners into being good." There is a tudor home near here that was brought over from england and reassembled here. It has historical furniture and some of the beds have such features right where you would have to look at them as you sleep. An interesting subject Thanks

9th January 2007, 03:57 AM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks David, Rhysmichael interesting points. I just found this online passage which may be of intrest? The first satanic cult which possibly existed was operated by Catherine La Voisin at the Court of the French monarch Louis XIV. Although some historians are skeptical, the documents of the inquiry by Nicholas de la Reynie, the Police Chief of the king -- who was not a particularly religious man but a rather cold and stubborn policeman -- published by the 19th century historian François Ravaisson-Mollien, make a persuasive case for the celebration of "Black Masses" (the term was coined by La Voisin herself) at the Court of Louis XIV. "Black Masses" were described as rituals mocking the Roman Catholic Mass, in which Catholic hosts were desecrated through sex rituals and children were occasionally sacrificed to the Devil in order to obtain power and love for the wealthy customers of La Voisin [2]. La Reynie's police effectively destroyed the cult, but the emerging press made the incident infamous for decades in Europe and copycat imitations surfaced during the 18th century and during the French Revolution. These episodes were connected by pious Catholic authors to the Revolution itself, which they believed had been masterminded by anti-Catholic Satanists. The "gargoyle heads" as called under a lens are clearly not Gargoyles , but human faces one dejected & unhappy the other covered in boils, both wear Jewish or I would say more likely bishops skull caps. I understand French & German satanist knives are well recorded from at least in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century. But certanly many are later. Intresting images David, scenes of goat sacrifice with dagger & pan from "the devil rides out" seem more in keeping with such a clearly potentialy lethal design of blade. Spiral

9th January 2007, 04:34 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,220	[QUOTE=spiralI understand French & German satanist knives are well recorded from at least in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century. But certanly many are later.l[/QUOTE] Spiral, why "certainly"? I am not sure what you are basing this assuption on. Have you seen or do you have any links to photos of "satanic" blades that pre-date the late 19thC. I am well aware of the stories of Catherine La Voisin, but much of her legend is just that and beyond any definable fact. She apparently claimed to have sacrificed 2500 children, but there was hardly a rash of missing children in her area during her run in France. The 'black mass" is not necessarily a satanic thing, it is just a rebelious anti-Christian thing. It doesn't necessarily require the belief in Satan as one's god nor the evil doings such as child sacrifice that the stories of satanism would have one believe were common practice for these cults. As i stated earlier "satanic" is a loaded term that is probably best left behind. This could still be meant as a ritual weapon i am leaning more towards the Hunchback attribution.

9th January 2007, 04:48 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,299	Yikes, I had no idea there was such knowledge on the 'black arts' here!! Scary stuff!! Actually we have had discussions on these esoteric knives termed 'athame' about seven years ago, and discussions got pretty interesting. The term athame is thought to possibly derive from 'attame' (Fr.=to cut or pierce) and it is noted that 'athe' (Gk.=Godless), however there is no agreed upon etymological reference as far as I know. Interestingly the variant term 'arthame' seems to derive from the term used to refer to the knife in a 1930's horror movie "The Master of Crabs" ! (I'm still choking on dust from dragging out these old notes from those discussions years ago! Apparantly the concept of the athame is ceremonial, and supposedly its use is much like that of the Tibetan phurbu in ethereal sense. It is theoretically an extension of self and used to direct the flow of energy or will, to invoke or banish. It is used to guide energy from self to the circle etc. and so on in the complexities of these wiccan ceremonies. Naturally in earlier times there is likely some sacrificial use implicated, but those situations are avoided in most explanatory information. As mentioned, I had noted that I had thought these decorated scabbards were to be viewed point up, but must admit that although I had seen some reference somewhere with comments to that effect concerning looking at the sword, I honestly cannot relocate that item. Actually, I simply considered the structure of the church and obviously the doors had to be shown at the wider part of the scabbard, while the peak of the church would narrow toward the tip or point. It would seem silly to think that the doors would be seen upside down, on the roof ?(reminds me of the kids game with interlocked fingers about the church and steeple, of course I always got it wrong and my people were on the roof!! Also, in discussions of the sword, the blade is often termed the 'root' of the blade, thus at the hand, and grows upward. In edged weapon esoterica, the Indian katar is often decorated with the 'kundalini' flame, which originates at the root of the blade, and burns upward, thus the blade would be viewed point upward. I believe these were the basis of my comment. In finally looking at the Holbein daggers I mentioned, the decoration is shown in linear, that is viewed sideways ,so it would seem there is no set manner in viewing a scabbard as I had suggested. I apologize for my assumption and for the unsupported statement. Returning to the dagger, it seems that about mid 16th century, decorative sheath designs began to become popular, most notably the Holbein examples I have mentioned. Apparantly Hans Holbein (the younger) published his book "The Dance of Death" in Lyons c.1523, and created scabbards with macabre theme based on his drawings. Later other examples took scenes from Roman and Swiss history as well as Old Testament themes. It would seem that this decorative theme motif on daggers and sheaths extended through Europe, and this example, though certainly much later of course, is carrying out its theme from literary sources in the same manner. Best regards, Jim

9th January 2007, 04:56 AM	#10
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Jim, David and RhysMichael, fantastic posts! You got me reading all about Wiccans now I wonder how much of the witch craze of the 16th-17th centuries was based on actual witch/satanic convents and how much on poor old women who knew a great deal of botany and medicine. Regards, Emanuel

10th January 2007, 01:22 PM	#13
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	My wife Anne just woke up and we read this post together. Having just seen the "Da Vinci Code" on DVD she decided that the woman is Sophia (Goddess of Wisdom and therefore Owls) about to sacrifice the male goat (Pan) to continue her bloodline. I suggested that the Pan she (Anne) should be studying is the one to fry / sacrifice the Aeytheric Egg, or universal Ovum over easy for breakfast! It is early in the morning here. "Io Pan, Io Pan, Io Pan. Pan! Pan! Pan!" (Say it slowly, keep it Holy) -- A.Crowley

11th January 2007, 02:05 PM	#14
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,220	Thanks Wolviex, that just about nails it for me. This last dagger you have presented shows tha tfigurative daggers were being made at the time that illustrated literary themes. probably the creator of Spirals dagger found the title "Hunchback of Notre Dame" a bit to long to place on the blade. I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature. Death is a fact of life and i see nothing evil about images of skulls or skeletal forms. Snakes i have always seen as a postive symbol as they are in most cultures around the world. Owls we have discussed. Images of winged and/or horned demons can be seen in many different ways. The images of Pan and the Green Man were turned into images of the Devil by the church. Very early images of some angels are also horned. The horn is generally seen as a sign of power. Jews blow the shofar. Horn is highly prized by many cultures for a reason. My point is that evil is really in the eyes of the beholder here. Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere. It makes this dagger more valuable to him to think it was once owned by one. Frankly i find it to be very interesting regardless. There are certainly other daggers shown in this thread that are much more obviously occult. But an assumption that they are therefore "satanic" in intent can only be made by those who lack a deeper understanding of occult matters. Occult matters are by their very nature hidden and often dark, in that they deal with a side of nature that is not usually embraced by the general public. People tend to fear what they don't understand. That doesn't necesarily make it evil. Wolviex supports my thought that these occult daggers were most probably meant for show, or in some cases for the use of tracing sigils as a symbolic weapon of air in lodge style ceremonial magick. I seriously doubt they were ever employed as a means of sacrifice, animal or otherwise.