Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by wolviex

I agree with David and it seems to be obvious that scabbard is a representation of a church.

But I DON'T AGREE with an upside down theory which is just a wishful thinking here, I suppose, and the result you would like to see it upside down.

First: if the scabbard represents a church why the upside down crosses, or - I'm not familiar with stanic symbolism - but do they ever picture churches upsidedown

Second, and most important, the image with hilt downside is the proper side! Take a look at the most of the European swords, and blades inscriptions, including crosses (i.e. Hungarian ones) - with your theory every one of them would be satanic, upside down!

Regards!

While I am no expert on the subject the upside down crosses were used in satanic rituals during the time when black masses were done. These were even at times done in an actual church with the crucifix turned upside down. There are historical references to the black mass going back into the 1600's, perhaps even before that. Some books on satanism say there is recorded the arrest of a French baron, Gilles de Rais, who was accused of conducting Black Masses in the cellar of his castle. The accusation claimed that he kidnapped, tortured, and murdered more than 140 children as sacrifices. He was executed in 1440. In 1500 some say the cathedral chapter of Cambrai held Black Masses in protest against their bishop. Some references speak of a priest in Orleans, Gentien le Clerc, tried around 1615, confessed to performing the "Devil's mass". In 1647 the nuns of Louviers claimed that they had been bewitched and possessed, and forced by chaplains to participate naked in masses, defiling the cross and trampling the host. It seems most of the accounts come from France. A good bit published on them in the 1800's ( again mostly from France) and a resurgence in published work around 1960. Catherine Monvoisin and the priest Etienne Guibourg were executed for preforming a black mass for the mistress of Louis XIV( Madame de Montespan). In 1891 Joris-Karl Huysmans wrote about French Satanism in a text called La-Bas. So it depends on what you consider modern as to whether satanism is a "a modern phenomenon" It is true La Vey's Church of Satan or Michael Aquino's Temple of Set are very modern and may not have more than a passing connection to the historical examples.

The cross on the blade may fit with what you say in your second point but are crosses on the scabbard upside down ? And if so did they seem to come from a steeple as these do ? I find what Jim says very interesting as I never thought sheaths were looked at tip up and that is something new I have learned.

I do agree that we all see what we expect or want to see sometimes so I may be doing that here

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Not an Atheme scabbard. Could the scabbard be a later addition?

An atheme would not have upside-down or rightside-up cross. Christian symbols are not part of Wicca. Probably not Pagan either. Most likely something else.

Maybe satanist or some anti-christian cult.

Cauldrons have three legs and are more spherical.

Blade does look like a reshaped sword blade. Particularly the way the fullers go up into the handle.

I like it.

Bill I know arthames are used in wiccan and some celtic ritual now but was not the dagger used for satanic ritual also called an arthame, but I could be totally wrong on that, again I need to check LaVey or Aleister Crowley. and of course even if they used the term it does not mean they used it correctly.

Originally Posted by David

Beautiful dagger. The scabbard does seem to be a representation of a church. I see nothing that would ID the woman as Lilith. I would assume she is more likely a high priestess. I would also stop short of referring to this as a "satanic" dagger, though it is most like to be for pagan purposes. Just because it may not be from a Judeo-Christian tradition doesn't necessarily make it "satanic".

David
I completly agree with you that all that is pagan is not satanic. And this may indeed be a dagger for some other use. Either way the symbolism on it facinates me and makes me want to know more. When I use the term "satanic" I use it in the historical context of above.


Lastly as to the "caldron" I do not believe older caldrons fit the image we think of today. And the caldron is a very old symbol. Here is a link to a picture from a shipwreck dating to 200 BC in the Mediterranean, the picture is identified as a cooking caldron among amphora

http://www.seaword.org/images/caldron.jpg

and a reproduction of a medieval "caldron"
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/cd-1301.jpg

Of course it could just as well be a tambourine as mentioned above

One thing we all agree on is the workmanship and attention to detail is excellent

[David]

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Bill I know arthames are used in wiccan and some celtic ritual now but was not the dagger used for satanic ritual also called an arthame, but I could be totally wrong on that, again I need to check LaVey or Aleister Crowley

Despite relishing in being called the "Great Beast" there is nothing in the writings of Crowley which leads me to believe he was in any way a satanist. LaVey was a self-proclaimed modern satanist whose practice was pretty much a modern invention. I doubt you will find much useful info in his writings. His rituals were based on ritual lodge magick of the 19thC (the Golden Dawn) so it is likely you would find the use of a dagger in them, but it hardly points to any satanic origin. The stories of "black masses" mostly come from a Christian perspective, making the stories of these early "satanists" highly suspect. Any claim made by modern satanists to knowledge of practicing the "authentic" black mass is sketchy at best.
The use of a dagger as an item in ritual magick really came into vogue in 19thC lodge magick, where a specific magickal weapon is assigned to each of the 4 elements of fire, water, air and earth, the dagger/sword belonging to the element of air. The Golden Dawn magicians created a magickal philosophy, based on Christianity, Qabalistic thought, Rosicrusian writings from the 17thC and Eastern philosophies. Gerald Gardner (once a member of the G.D. and a student of Crowley), known as the father of modern Wicca (and interestingly the author of The Kris and other Malay Weapons) continued the elemental importance of the dagger when he invented modern Wicca, changing it's attribution to fire instead of air. In all probability his experiences with the keris in Indonesia was important in forming his theories on the athame's importance in the Wiccan religion. I have serious doubts that the dagger had the same kind of intellectual importance in early (pre-Golden Dawn) Western magickal societies. The dagger probably had a more practical purpose, to be used in animal sacrifice. Probably a special dagger was used, but because i don't think it was assigned the same intellectual importance the latter occultists gave it i wonder if anything as specifically designed as the dagger presented here would have been created back in the day for such a purpose. So if there are such things as "satanic" daggers i doubt they are much more than a century old.

[RhysMichael]

Thanks for the information on the term Arthame. I was mistaken to use that term then.

It is true the writings of the 1800's are said tell vitually nothing of the ritual of the black mass and are totally from the perpective of the church. And yes many of the confessions during this time should be considered suspect or fabrications, I personally however see satanism as a natural course that rebellion to the church could take and the more restrictive the church the more appealing satanism would be to some people.

My comment on the monstrous and tormented faces on cherubs above are also in line with your comment "The church used to love to show torment to scare it's paritioners into being good." There is a tudor home near here that was brought over from england and reassembled here. It has historical furniture and some of the beds have such features right where you would have to look at them as you sleep.

An interesting subject
Thanks

[David]

Then again, the tormented faces could refer to gargoyles of Notre Dame or to the Hunchback himself.
I dug these images up. sorry they are so small.

[spiral]

Thanks David, Rhysmichael interesting points.

I just found this online passage which may be of intrest?

The first satanic cult which possibly existed was operated by Catherine La Voisin at the Court of the French monarch Louis XIV. Although some historians are skeptical, the documents of the inquiry by Nicholas de la Reynie, the Police Chief of the king -- who was not a particularly religious man but a rather cold and stubborn policeman -- published by the 19th century historian François Ravaisson-Mollien, make a persuasive case for the celebration of "Black Masses" (the term was coined by La Voisin herself) at the Court of Louis XIV. "Black Masses" were described as rituals mocking the Roman Catholic Mass, in which Catholic hosts were desecrated through sex rituals and children were occasionally sacrificed to the Devil in order to obtain power and love for the wealthy customers of La Voisin [2]. La Reynie's police effectively destroyed the cult, but the emerging press made the incident infamous for decades in Europe and copycat imitations surfaced during the 18th century and during the French Revolution. These episodes were connected by pious Catholic authors to the Revolution itself, which they believed had been masterminded by anti-Catholic Satanists.


The "gargoyle heads" as called under a lens are clearly not Gargoyles , but human faces one dejected & unhappy the other covered in boils, both wear Jewish or I would say more likely bishops skull caps.

I understand French & German satanist knives are well recorded from at least in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century. But certanly many are later.

Intresting images David, scenes of goat sacrifice with dagger & pan from "the devil rides out" seem more in keeping with such a clearly potentialy lethal design of blade.

Spiral

[David]

[QUOTE=spiralI understand French & German satanist knives are well recorded from at least in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century. But certanly many are later.l[/QUOTE]

Spiral, why "certainly"? I am not sure what you are basing this assuption on. Have you seen or do you have any links to photos of "satanic" blades that pre-date the late 19thC.
I am well aware of the stories of Catherine La Voisin, but much of her legend is just that and beyond any definable fact. She apparently claimed to have sacrificed 2500 children, but there was hardly a rash of missing children in her area during her run in France. The 'black mass" is not necessarily a satanic thing, it is just a rebelious anti-Christian thing. It doesn't necessarily require the belief in Satan as one's god nor the evil doings such as child sacrifice that the stories of satanism would have one believe were common practice for these cults. As i stated earlier "satanic" is a loaded term that is probably best left behind.
This could still be meant as a ritual weapon i am leaning more towards the Hunchback attribution.

[Emanuel]

Hi Spiral, cool knife.

I think the "Huntchback of Notre-Dame" link is quite strong. The church is a stylized depiction of Notre-Dame itself if you compare with David's picture and others: Three portals on the first level, one rose window in the central bay flanked by twin towers each with a two-lancet window within a blind arch on the second. The third level features a ballustrade in the central bay and two thin rectangular windows in each adjacent tower. These towers once had peaked roofs if I recall correctly and the tall roof in the middle is actually the spire above the crossing the church as it would be seen from the front. And the figure is the spitting image of Esmeralda, down to the locket with her baby shoe. The figures on the ends of the guard could be the huntchback himself and Dom Frolo, the priest who covetted Esmeralda. I guess a real romantic put the dagger together.

Emanuel

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, why "certainly"? I am not sure what you are basing this assuption on. Have you seen or do you have any links to photos of "satanic" blades that pre-date the late 19thC.
As i stated earlier "satanic" is a loaded term that is probably best left behind.
This could still be meant as a ritual weapon i am leaning more towards the Hunchback attribution.

David, In Archaological, calander & historical terms "later" means more recently, not older.

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Yikes, I had no idea there was such knowledge on the 'black arts' here!!
Scary stuff!!
Actually we have had discussions on these esoteric knives termed 'athame' about seven years ago, and discussions got pretty interesting. The term athame is thought to possibly derive from 'attame' (Fr.=to cut or pierce) and it is noted that 'athe' (Gk.=Godless), however there is no agreed upon etymological reference as far as I know.
Interestingly the variant term 'arthame' seems to derive from the term used to refer to the knife in a 1930's horror movie "The Master of Crabs" !
(I'm still choking on dust from dragging out these old notes from those discussions years ago!

Apparantly the concept of the athame is ceremonial, and supposedly its use is much like that of the Tibetan phurbu in ethereal sense. It is theoretically an extension of self and used to direct the flow of energy or will, to invoke or banish. It is used to guide energy from self to the circle etc. and so on in the complexities of these wiccan ceremonies. Naturally in earlier times there is likely some sacrificial use implicated, but those situations are avoided in most explanatory information.

As mentioned, I had noted that I had thought these decorated scabbards were to be viewed point up, but must admit that although I had seen some reference somewhere with comments to that effect concerning looking at the sword, I honestly cannot relocate that item. Actually, I simply considered the structure of the church and obviously the doors had to be shown at the wider part of the scabbard, while the peak of the church would narrow toward the tip or point. It would seem silly to think that the doors would be seen upside down, on the roof ?(reminds me of the kids game with interlocked fingers about the church and steeple, of course I always got it wrong and my people were on the roof!!
Also, in discussions of the sword, the blade is often termed the 'root' of the blade, thus at the hand, and grows upward. In edged weapon esoterica, the Indian katar is often decorated with the 'kundalini' flame, which originates at the root of the blade, and burns upward, thus the blade would be viewed point upward. I believe these were the basis of my comment.

In finally looking at the Holbein daggers I mentioned, the decoration is shown in linear, that is viewed sideways ,so it would seem there is no set manner in viewing a scabbard as I had suggested. I apologize for my assumption and for the unsupported statement.

Returning to the dagger, it seems that about mid 16th century, decorative sheath designs began to become popular, most notably the Holbein examples I have mentioned. Apparantly Hans Holbein (the younger) published his book "The Dance of Death" in Lyons c.1523, and created scabbards with macabre theme based on his drawings. Later other examples took scenes from Roman and Swiss history as well as Old Testament themes. It would seem that this decorative theme motif on daggers and sheaths extended through Europe, and this example, though certainly much later of course, is carrying out its theme from literary sources in the same manner.

Best regards,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Jim, David and RhysMichael, fantastic posts! You got me reading all about Wiccans now
I wonder how much of the witch craze of the 16th-17th centuries was based on actual witch/satanic convents and how much on poor old women who knew a great deal of botany and medicine.
Regards,
Emanuel

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Yikes, I had no idea there was such knowledge on the 'black arts' here!!
Scary stuff!!


As mentioned, I had noted that I had thought these decorated scabbards were to be viewed point up, but must admit that although I had seen some reference somewhere with comments to that effect concerning looking at the sword, I honestly cannot relocate that item. Actually, I simply considered the structure of the church and obviously the doors had to be shown at the wider part of the scabbard, while the peak of the church would narrow toward the tip or point. It would seem silly to think that the doors would be seen upside down, on the roof ?(reminds me of the kids game with interlocked fingers about the church and steeple, of course I always got it wrong and my people were on the roof!!
Also, in discussions of the sword, the blade is often termed the 'root' of the blade, thus at the hand, and grows upward. In edged weapon esoterica, the Indian katar is often decorated with the 'kundalini' flame, which originates at the root of the blade, and burns upward, thus the blade would be viewed point upward. I believe these were the basis of my comment.

In finally looking at the Holbein daggers I mentioned, the decoration is shown in linear, that is viewed sideways ,so it would seem there is no set manner in viewing a scabbard as I had suggested. I apologize for my assumption and for the unsupported statement.

Returning to the dagger, it seems that about mid 16th century, decorative sheath designs began to become popular, most notably the Holbein examples I have mentioned. Apparantly Hans Holbein (the younger) published his book "The Dance of Death" in Lyons c.1523, and created scabbards with macabre theme based on his drawings. Later other examples took scenes from Roman and Swiss history as well as Old Testament themes. It would seem that this decorative theme motif on daggers and sheaths extended through Europe, and this example, though certainly much later of course, is carrying out its theme from literary sources in the same manner.

Best regards,
Jim

Thankyou Jim, intresting stuff! Thankyou for taking the time.

Although the blade is liklely to be originaly from The Holbien period, i am sure the scabbord & handle are later.

The closet things I can find {as mentioned} in exotic cast handle pieces, is in the wallace collection that was a gift from Napolean III to the 4th Marques in 1860.

& the of course the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000.





Which shows the satanic motifs on the scabbard the right way up when the figural handle is upright. {which after all seems the logical way to study a figural piece.} But the signs of Liberty upside down.

Both of which are clearly veiwed handle upright.


For Wolviex & others who clearly havent seen such similar things heres 2 other examples.

Another spiecimien,



From Liongate Arms & armour. http://www.antiqueswords.com/mw57.htm

& a "later" example. {Which means more recently for those who were unaware. }




Spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Some books on satanism say there is recorded the arrest of a French baron, Gilles de Rais, who was accused of conducting Black Masses in the cellar of his castle. The accusation claimed that he kidnapped, tortured, and murdered more than 140 children as sacrifices. He was executed in 1440. In 1500 some say the cathedral chapter of Cambrai held Black Masses in protest against their bishop. Some references speak of a priest in Orleans, Gentien le Clerc, tried around 1615, confessed to performing the "Devil's mass". In 1647 the nuns of Louviers claimed that they had been bewitched and possessed, and forced by chaplains to participate naked in masses, defiling the cross and trampling the host. It seems most of the accounts come from France.

Keep in mind that these confessions were obtained by the inquistion through torture. I person might confess to just about anything under those circumstances. BTW, there is a wonderfully interesting film called "The Devils" that gives a very different perspective on the nuns "bewitched" by the priest in Louviers. Likewise it is doubtful that the church executed too many actual witches during the witch hunts.