Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

Henk · 18th February 2005, 09:31 AM

You made a point Nechesh, and a stone doesn't make a pamor blade unless you heat it and collect the possible nickle and use it, but that is unlogical.
And I'm aware of the fact that different metalls were used to make a pamor blade without nickle.

I did read the dutch version of Tammens and I don't find mentioned that dr. Groneman was told that the metall came from a meteor. But it is very good possible like you put it. But when they told him the metall was from a meteor, our scientist wasn't acting very scietific

tom hyle · 18th February 2005, 12:47 PM

I have thought of this idea of meteorite kris as a confusion of windmenstatten and pamor patterns, but could it be that there is an Indonesian folk belief that nickel or other metals originate from meteors, and even when mined from the Earth, that their origins "in the mists of time" are celestial? In Western Africa there is a folk belief that neolithic celts (knives/axes/palstave tips) come from the sky and are artifacts of divine/alien origin.

okhba3 · 18th February 2005, 02:16 PM

According to an Indonesian book: "Pamor Keris" by Bambang Harsrinuksmo, the key component for Pamor is Titanium and not Nickel. It's true that there was a laboratorium test for Prambanan meteorite and it said that there were 4.7% Nickel, 49.38% Iron and 0.53% Phospor, but the test was using ancient chemical anlysis. A newer test using nuclear physics was done by Haryono Arumbinang reveals that there was no Nickel in Prambanan meteorite, instead there were significant amount of Titanium, Iron, Zirkonium and Niobium.
The logic behind it that Titanium is so hard that when the meteorite hits the earth, most of the material was burned except for Titanium and other metals.

BSMStar · 19th February 2005, 01:56 AM

okhba3

OK, I am confused by the latest analysis on the Prambanan meteorite, do you have any sources to quote. An amount of Ti above a trace amount would be highly unusual... but to say there is no nickel, but Ti instead?????

I would think the first state analysis is more correct than the other stating Ti.

Tom,

I do not think anyone would confuse pamor with Widmanstatten structure. Widmanstatten structure will only be visible through rusting (oxidation) or through acid etching. Pamor is basically binding the iron on the blade with sulfur to blacken it. Attached are two pictures to show the visual differences, the Widmanstatten structure if of a fine octahedrite.

Here is some more interesting stuff:

http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/FS_iron.htm

tom hyle · 19th February 2005, 05:27 AM

Actually though we may have forgotten, I think it is very easy for anyone not familiar with either to confuse or conflate the two; the primary visual difference is contiunual curved layers vs. patchy small layers; not a very big difference to the many people who are not much used to thinking about material structures....

BSMStar · 19th February 2005, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Actually though we may have forgotten, I think it is very easy for anyone not familiar with either to confuse or conflate the two; the primary visual difference is contiunual curved layers vs. patchy small layers; not a very big difference to the many people who are not much used to thinking about material structures....

As long as we keep in mind, there isn't any black color in the Widmanstatten pattern. The affect is cause by the different speeds the acid "eats" it's way through the nickel-iron structure... where in pamor, it is a blackening affect by depositing sulfur on the iron, changing the color of the iron surface.

BSMStar

tom hyle · 20th February 2005, 01:44 AM

Actually pamor is etched by acid in exactly the same manner, and (commonly) also stained. The staining is a subtlety understood only by natives and afficionadi; ordinary "westerners" do not understand there to be a difference between pamor and any other folded steel, if they know anything about it at all.....listen, I encounter sellers on ebay who cannot give me measurements in coherent units, or who don't know the difference between width and thickness; believe me; it's easy for the ignorant to conflate things.

okhba3 · 20th February 2005, 03:22 PM

BSMStar,
the book that I quoted is: "Pamor Keris", by Bambang Harsrinuksmo, C.V. Agung Lestari, Jakarta, 1995 (4th edition). Unfortunately it is an Indonesian language book. It is not a new research though, since the 1st edition of the book is February 1985. And there are no specific data in the book about the content of Titanium and other metal component for Prambanan meteorite, but it specifically said that there is no Nickel in that pamor material. The research was done by Haryono Arumbinang Msc, and his friends in BATAN (Indonesian atomic research body) in Yogyakarta. I will try to look at other sources though and see if I can be get more information about this research.

BSMStar · 21st February 2005, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Actually pamor is etched by acid in exactly the same manner, and (commonly) also stained. The staining is a subtlety understood only by natives and afficionadi; ordinary "westerners" do not understand there to be a difference between pamor and any other folded steel, if they know anything about it at all.....listen, I encounter sellers on ebay who cannot give me measurements in coherent units, or who don't know the difference between width and thickness; believe me; it's easy for the ignorant to conflate things.

Hi Tom,

I just want to be sure I am not misunderstood... unlike pamor, the Widmanstatten pattern has no staining to the surface as does pamor. That is the difference I am referring to.

BSMStar

18th February 2005, 02:16 PM	#3
okhba3 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 10	Titanium is the key component? According to an Indonesian book: "Pamor Keris" by Bambang Harsrinuksmo, the key component for Pamor is Titanium and not Nickel. It's true that there was a laboratorium test for Prambanan meteorite and it said that there were 4.7% Nickel, 49.38% Iron and 0.53% Phospor, but the test was using ancient chemical anlysis. A newer test using nuclear physics was done by Haryono Arumbinang reveals that there was no Nickel in Prambanan meteorite, instead there were significant amount of Titanium, Iron, Zirkonium and Niobium. The logic behind it that Titanium is so hard that when the meteorite hits the earth, most of the material was burned except for Titanium and other metals.

19th February 2005, 01:56 AM	#4
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	okhba3 OK, I am confused by the latest analysis on the Prambanan meteorite, do you have any sources to quote. An amount of Ti above a trace amount would be highly unusual... but to say there is no nickel, but Ti instead????? I would think the first state analysis is more correct than the other stating Ti. Tom, I do not think anyone would confuse pamor with Widmanstatten structure. Widmanstatten structure will only be visible through rusting (oxidation) or through acid etching. Pamor is basically binding the iron on the blade with sulfur to blacken it. Attached are two pictures to show the visual differences, the Widmanstatten structure if of a fine octahedrite. Here is some more interesting stuff: http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/FS_iron.htm Attached Images

18th February 2005, 09:31 AM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	You made a point Nechesh, and a stone doesn't make a pamor blade unless you heat it and collect the possible nickle and use it, but that is unlogical. And I'm aware of the fact that different metalls were used to make a pamor blade without nickle. I did read the dutch version of Tammens and I don't find mentioned that dr. Groneman was told that the metall came from a meteor. But it is very good possible like you put it. But when they told him the metall was from a meteor, our scientist wasn't acting very scietific

18th February 2005, 12:47 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I have thought of this idea of meteorite kris as a confusion of windmenstatten and pamor patterns, but could it be that there is an Indonesian folk belief that nickel or other metals originate from meteors, and even when mined from the Earth, that their origins "in the mists of time" are celestial? In Western Africa there is a folk belief that neolithic celts (knives/axes/palstave tips) come from the sky and are artifacts of divine/alien origin.

19th February 2005, 05:27 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Actually though we may have forgotten, I think it is very easy for anyone not familiar with either to confuse or conflate the two; the primary visual difference is contiunual curved layers vs. patchy small layers; not a very big difference to the many people who are not much used to thinking about material structures....

20th February 2005, 01:44 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Actually pamor is etched by acid in exactly the same manner, and (commonly) also stained. The staining is a subtlety understood only by natives and afficionadi; ordinary "westerners" do not understand there to be a difference between pamor and any other folded steel, if they know anything about it at all.....listen, I encounter sellers on ebay who cannot give me measurements in coherent units, or who don't know the difference between width and thickness; believe me; it's easy for the ignorant to conflate things.

20th February 2005, 03:22 PM	#8
okhba3 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 10	BSMStar, the book that I quoted is: "Pamor Keris", by Bambang Harsrinuksmo, C.V. Agung Lestari, Jakarta, 1995 (4th edition). Unfortunately it is an Indonesian language book. It is not a new research though, since the 1st edition of the book is February 1985. And there are no specific data in the book about the content of Titanium and other metal component for Prambanan meteorite, but it specifically said that there is no Nickel in that pamor material. The research was done by Haryono Arumbinang Msc, and his friends in BATAN (Indonesian atomic research body) in Yogyakarta. I will try to look at other sources though and see if I can be get more information about this research.