British pattern Infantry sword....please help

Paul Digard · 19th December 2006, 07:22 PM

Hi David

It looks like a P1827 pattern Rifle officer's sword though the design of the bugle in the hilt cartouche is slightly different to any I recall seeing before. The fullered blade and inset proof disc date it to later than c. 1850. I suspect the blade has been shortened though - the blade by itself should be around 32.5 inches with 6 or more inches after the end of the fuller.

Is there any etched decoration on the blade? I would expect a VR cypher and quite possibly the name of the regiment. There were an awful lot of volunteer rifle brigades set up in Britain in the mid Victorian era and one of these would be pretty unlikely to have seen service overseas.

Hope this helps

Paul

Rick · 19th December 2006, 10:26 PM

bump

spiral · 19th December 2006, 10:50 PM

Reminds me of the UK Police, prison & customs officers swords, they are nearer that length, but I dont think they would have the bugle, thats normaly for light infantry rregiments.

Spiral

katana · 19th December 2006, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Digard

Hi David

It looks like a P1827 pattern Rifle officer's sword though the design of the bugle in the hilt cartouche is slightly different to any I recall seeing before. The fullered blade and inset proof disc date it to later than c. 1850. I suspect the blade has been shortened though - the blade by itself should be around 32.5 inches with 6 or more inches after the end of the fuller.

Is there any etched decoration on the blade? I would expect a VR cypher and quite possibly the name of the regiment. There were an awful lot of volunteer rifle brigades set up in Britain in the mid Victorian era and one of these would be pretty unlikely to have seen service overseas.

Hope this helps

Paul

Thankyou Paul.....and welcome to the forum...I am sure you'll enjoy it here on the Forum.

The blade is indeed short it is 25 3/4 "" long .......6 3/4" too less than the 'regulation' length

There are no visible signs of this sword having been 'cut down', it must have been well done and very early in its life (the colouring/patina is consistant with the rest of the blade). It was the length ........or should that be ....its shortness...that threw me.It had all the characteristics of the p1827 but the length was nowhere near.

The other strange thing is that the balance of this sword is excellent and the ease of use surprised me. Perhaps this was shortened to achieve this goal

Surely the extra 6 3/4" would change all that...in a negative way

Jeff D · 20th December 2006, 01:42 AM

Hi katana,

I think that is a Wilkinson proof mark. Is there a number on the spine of the blade. Good eye Paul (and welcome here), that looks like a hunting horn, I have never seen that one before?

hope this helps.
Jeff

katana · 20th December 2006, 12:05 PM

Thankyou, Spiral your suggestions will give me another area to research.

(sorry I didn't notice your post....we must have posted at around the same time)

Thanks Jeff for your input....unfortunately there are no serial numbers. The etching on the blade is very badly worn, I can just make out a crown and some 'foliage' type design ....so no clues there either. I did not realise that the 'horn' could be helpful in IDing the sword...I will post a better pic of it soon.

katana · 20th December 2006, 12:34 PM

The 'Horn'....

katana · 20th December 2006, 09:50 PM

I found information on the 'horn' ...it seems that it is a French horn adopted by the 51st Yorkshire Light Infantry after Waterloo, later to include 105th in India.

"The Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry (51st 105th Regiments of Foot)

The 51st Regiment of Foot was raised in 1755 within the West Riding of Yorkshire and has been associated with this area ever since. In 1839 the East India Company raised a new Regiment the Second Madras Light Infantry.

After the Indian Mutiny of 1857 this Regiment was re-designated as the 105th Foot (Madras Light Infantry).

The Cardwell reforms of 1881 saw the 51st 105th Regiments of Foot amalgamated to form The Kings Own Light Infantry (South Yorkshire Regiment)"

"

Jim McDougall · 21st December 2006, 03:17 AM

Hi Paul!
Its great to see you posting here!!!!

I have always very much enjoyed your posts and outstanding knowledge on military weapons, and its good to have your input.

Although it has often been contended that military weapons are somewhat outside the scope of 'ethnographic weapons' , I have always considered them extremely pertinant. In so many instances these weapons have become the donors for the blades found on many native weapons, and often have been the influence for developing indiginous forms.

David, nice work on finding the regimental data key to this interesting sword! and thanks very much for sharing this example.

All the best,
Jim

Paul Digard · 21st December 2006, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I found information on the 'horn' ...it seems that it is a French horn adopted by the 51st Yorkshire Light Infantry after Waterloo, later to include 105th in India.
"

That's a great suggestion but I'm not totally convinced. All the KOYLI badges I've seen have a white rose in the middle. Prompted by that I've had a quick search on the net and have found this:

The Westmoreland Light Infantry Militia
Westmoreland cap badge

The Highland LI also had a French horn but with HLI in the centre.

Is there nothing on the blade to help narrow things down a bit further?

Paul

20th December 2006, 12:34 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	The 'Horn'.... Attached Images

20th December 2006, 09:50 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I found information on the 'horn' ...it seems that it is a French horn adopted by the 51st Yorkshire Light Infantry after Waterloo, later to include 105th in India. "The Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry (51st 105th Regiments of Foot) The 51st Regiment of Foot was raised in 1755 within the West Riding of Yorkshire and has been associated with this area ever since. In 1839 the East India Company raised a new Regiment the Second Madras Light Infantry. After the Indian Mutiny of 1857 this Regiment was re-designated as the 105th Foot (Madras Light Infantry). The Cardwell reforms of 1881 saw the 51st 105th Regiments of Foot amalgamated to form The Kings Own Light Infantry (South Yorkshire Regiment)" " Attached Images

19th December 2006, 07:22 PM	#1
Paul Digard Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 13	Hi David It looks like a P1827 pattern Rifle officer's sword though the design of the bugle in the hilt cartouche is slightly different to any I recall seeing before. The fullered blade and inset proof disc date it to later than c. 1850. I suspect the blade has been shortened though - the blade by itself should be around 32.5 inches with 6 or more inches after the end of the fuller. Is there any etched decoration on the blade? I would expect a VR cypher and quite possibly the name of the regiment. There were an awful lot of volunteer rifle brigades set up in Britain in the mid Victorian era and one of these would be pretty unlikely to have seen service overseas. Hope this helps Paul

19th December 2006, 10:26 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	bump

19th December 2006, 10:50 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Reminds me of the UK Police, prison & customs officers swords, they are nearer that length, but I dont think they would have the bugle, thats normaly for light infantry rregiments. Spiral

20th December 2006, 01:42 AM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi katana, I think that is a Wilkinson proof mark. Is there a number on the spine of the blade. Good eye Paul (and welcome here), that looks like a hunting horn, I have never seen that one before? hope this helps. Jeff

20th December 2006, 12:05 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thankyou, Spiral your suggestions will give me another area to research. (sorry I didn't notice your post....we must have posted at around the same time) Thanks Jeff for your input....unfortunately there are no serial numbers. The etching on the blade is very badly worn, I can just make out a crown and some 'foliage' type design ....so no clues there either. I did not realise that the 'horn' could be helpful in IDing the sword...I will post a better pic of it soon.

21st December 2006, 03:17 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Paul! Its great to see you posting here!!!! I have always very much enjoyed your posts and outstanding knowledge on military weapons, and its good to have your input. Although it has often been contended that military weapons are somewhat outside the scope of 'ethnographic weapons' , I have always considered them extremely pertinant. In so many instances these weapons have become the donors for the blades found on many native weapons, and often have been the influence for developing indiginous forms. David, nice work on finding the regimental data key to this interesting sword! and thanks very much for sharing this example. All the best, Jim