Turkish?Georgian? Polish? Shamshir

Rivkin · 16th February 2005, 08:49 PM

Gurda is what is considered to be the highest grade of shashka. There are two theories concerning the origin:
1. It is a perverted Genoese symbolics of two toothsaw-like arches.
2. It is similar to german Eisenhauer - something that can chop iron, as jaws chop food.

Gurda therefore is either a perferted Genoa or it's from a chechen "Gurda" - "look", supposedly this used to be said before doing something distinguishing.

Gurda can be recongized by the symbol of two arches with small lines ("teeth") running perpendicular to them.

The american sword is probably a vintage US Marine core Officer sword.

erlikhan · 16th February 2005, 09:20 PM

Thanks for the info. Can't have much age. Not real ivory. Plastic. There are both types on ebay at the moment. Ivory hilt on ww2 Marine. i guess not long after ww2 they started to use plastic instead of ivory, right?

Rivkin · 16th February 2005, 10:50 PM

Well, that's _the_ reason I don't collect shashkas - overblown, speculative market for some modern things with "jaws" or "wolves" on them, going for the price of a good XVII century sword.

erlikhan · 16th February 2005, 11:27 PM

hmm.there is no problem with shashka or -gurda. Everything including the stamps is old. I meant the marine sword as "new", not shashka. It has date "1321" - 1905 on the scabbard and Islamic inscriptions
regards

Rivkin · 17th February 2005, 12:07 AM

Fugh, sorry I was a little bit hasty - well, yes, it's understood that the marine sword is a new one.

Jim McDougall · 18th February 2005, 12:36 AM

Jeff,
Thank you! Good observations as noted in Elgood's book, those quillon terminals are very similar, also the wire wrap around grip base over the vertical langet is as noted an Arabian favored characteristic on many of these sabres.

Erlikhan:
The pistol grip Ottoman hilt in ivory is very unusual, and I think it is important to note that the Arabs typically favored Persian shamshir hilts, which were of course usually ivory. Much of the Arabian littoral was under Ottoman suzerainty and it would not seem unusual that an Ottoman hilt in the material of favor, ivory, might be custom made for a notable individual in those regions, most likely the western from Syria, the Hijaz and as far as Yemen.

The 'Spanish motto' on the blade has nothing to do with special application to Spaniards in this case, it is simply a favored motto that found use on many trade blades of quality, and as previously noted, appears on trade blades in stylized form to suggest quality, and nothing to do with the nationality etc. of the user of the sword it is mounted in. As I mentioned, these blades came out of the Caucusian areas, or even with Armenian swordsmiths in Transcaucasian regions (the lettering style of Armenian in many ways resembles Georgian, used to transliterate the Latin phrase).
Going to Syria for hilting to export into Arabia is most likely, and the Ottoman style hilt has nothing necessarily do do with Turkey as noted these regions of Arabia were only nominally under Ottoman (Turkish) control.
In reviewing Elgood (op.cit.) on page 23 (fig.2.19) there is an Arabian sa'if which has similar 'agrab' feature as yours on the scabbard locket. On page 62, discussing conflicts c.1917, Elgood notes,"...Ibn Sa'ud was about to settle old scores with his great rivals, the Al Rashid of Ha'il who were pro-Turkey". Could this pro Turkish tribe of Ha'il (located due NE of Hijaz and NW of Nejd, south of Syria) be one likely candidate for such an Ottoman styled weapon?

Rivkin,
That is a very well stated description of the 'gurda' term, and this appears to be a very nice example of in my opinion a Daghestani shashka (it is often very hard to distinguish between Daghestani and Chechen). The blade however does appear a very good quality Chechen blade. You are being quite conservative in the estimate on these shashkas, I've seen them go for a lot more!

Erlikhan, the USMC sabre is of course 20th century, and likely somewhat recent, however these sabres are very revered by their owners. Recently one was found at a garage sale, and found its way back to its original owner, having been stolen nearly 20 years ago. The officer had served in Viet Nam and was elated to get his sword back. In 2003, I was asked by a former Marine officer about the history of these so called 'mameluke' sabres, and the subsequent research resulted in my article which was published in the "Marine Corps Gazette" online magazine. While not necessarily 'old' , these sabres are proud examples of the true tradition of the sword which is carried forth to this day. I have tried to relocate the article online but haven't been able to (November 2003 issue under byline James E. McDougall), but if you're interested in a copy contact me PM and I'll send one.

You really hit the jackpot with these swords!!! Congratulations!
All the best,
Jim

Andrew · 18th February 2005, 02:26 AM

Jim, do you own the rights to that article? If so, perhaps we could persuade Lee to host it on the reference page.

18th February 2005, 12:36 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,579	Jeff, Thank you! Good observations as noted in Elgood's book, those quillon terminals are very similar, also the wire wrap around grip base over the vertical langet is as noted an Arabian favored characteristic on many of these sabres. Erlikhan: The pistol grip Ottoman hilt in ivory is very unusual, and I think it is important to note that the Arabs typically favored Persian shamshir hilts, which were of course usually ivory. Much of the Arabian littoral was under Ottoman suzerainty and it would not seem unusual that an Ottoman hilt in the material of favor, ivory, might be custom made for a notable individual in those regions, most likely the western from Syria, the Hijaz and as far as Yemen. The 'Spanish motto' on the blade has nothing to do with special application to Spaniards in this case, it is simply a favored motto that found use on many trade blades of quality, and as previously noted, appears on trade blades in stylized form to suggest quality, and nothing to do with the nationality etc. of the user of the sword it is mounted in. As I mentioned, these blades came out of the Caucusian areas, or even with Armenian swordsmiths in Transcaucasian regions (the lettering style of Armenian in many ways resembles Georgian, used to transliterate the Latin phrase). Going to Syria for hilting to export into Arabia is most likely, and the Ottoman style hilt has nothing necessarily do do with Turkey as noted these regions of Arabia were only nominally under Ottoman (Turkish) control. In reviewing Elgood (op.cit.) on page 23 (fig.2.19) there is an Arabian sa'if which has similar 'agrab' feature as yours on the scabbard locket. On page 62, discussing conflicts c.1917, Elgood notes,"...Ibn Sa'ud was about to settle old scores with his great rivals, the Al Rashid of Ha'il who were pro-Turkey". Could this pro Turkish tribe of Ha'il (located due NE of Hijaz and NW of Nejd, south of Syria) be one likely candidate for such an Ottoman styled weapon? Rivkin, That is a very well stated description of the 'gurda' term, and this appears to be a very nice example of in my opinion a Daghestani shashka (it is often very hard to distinguish between Daghestani and Chechen). The blade however does appear a very good quality Chechen blade. You are being quite conservative in the estimate on these shashkas, I've seen them go for a lot more! Erlikhan, the USMC sabre is of course 20th century, and likely somewhat recent, however these sabres are very revered by their owners. Recently one was found at a garage sale, and found its way back to its original owner, having been stolen nearly 20 years ago. The officer had served in Viet Nam and was elated to get his sword back. In 2003, I was asked by a former Marine officer about the history of these so called 'mameluke' sabres, and the subsequent research resulted in my article which was published in the "Marine Corps Gazette" online magazine. While not necessarily 'old' , these sabres are proud examples of the true tradition of the sword which is carried forth to this day. I have tried to relocate the article online but haven't been able to (November 2003 issue under byline James E. McDougall), but if you're interested in a copy contact me PM and I'll send one. You really hit the jackpot with these swords!!! Congratulations! All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 18th February 2005 at 01:44 AM.

16th February 2005, 08:49 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Gurda is what is considered to be the highest grade of shashka. There are two theories concerning the origin: 1. It is a perverted Genoese symbolics of two toothsaw-like arches. 2. It is similar to german Eisenhauer - something that can chop iron, as jaws chop food. Gurda therefore is either a perferted Genoa or it's from a chechen "Gurda" - "look", supposedly this used to be said before doing something distinguishing. Gurda can be recongized by the symbol of two arches with small lines ("teeth") running perpendicular to them. The american sword is probably a vintage US Marine core Officer sword.

16th February 2005, 09:20 PM	#2
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Thanks for the info. Can't have much age. Not real ivory. Plastic. There are both types on ebay at the moment. Ivory hilt on ww2 Marine. i guess not long after ww2 they started to use plastic instead of ivory, right?

16th February 2005, 10:50 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, that's _the_ reason I don't collect shashkas - overblown, speculative market for some modern things with "jaws" or "wolves" on them, going for the price of a good XVII century sword.

16th February 2005, 11:27 PM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	hmm.there is no problem with shashka or -gurda. Everything including the stamps is old. I meant the marine sword as "new", not shashka. It has date "1321" - 1905 on the scabbard and Islamic inscriptions regards

17th February 2005, 12:07 AM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Fugh, sorry I was a little bit hasty - well, yes, it's understood that the marine sword is a new one.

18th February 2005, 02:26 AM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Jim, do you own the rights to that article? If so, perhaps we could persuade Lee to host it on the reference page.