Jezail rifle. Unusual version ?

fernando · 2nd December 2006, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

I can see a changeover from matchlock to percussian. Usually flintlock to percussian conversians are just modified lockplates and hammers.

Well, actually Philip didn't say altered from flint to percussion, but altered do percussion.

ward · 2nd December 2006, 06:47 PM

your right I should have read it closer

fernando · 2nd December 2006, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

your right I should have read it closer

My fault. It was me who mentioned flint, by mistake.

The Double D · 2nd December 2006, 09:02 PM

The D Rings in front of the trigger guard are for rifle slings. There should be a second ring out on the fores tock ort barrel some where.

The one with the double rings may be one ring for the sling and one for a chest hook sling. But that is just a guess.

The flared muzzle by the way is exaggerated swamping. Created when the flats were filed in.

fernando · 2nd December 2006, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

The flared muzzle by the way is exaggerated swamping. Created when the flats were filed in.

I am learning here. Can you explain this by other words, just to make sure i get what you mean? I understand that the barrel swells out with the pressure of the mandrill getting through to make the rifling. Is this the message ?

The Double D · 3rd December 2006, 05:30 AM

I just don't believe these rifle barrel was mandrel formed, I wasn't there when they were made it so can't be sure. Could have been but I just have my doubts. What makes me think these barrel was not formed on mandrel is the inner rifling appears to have a twist to it. It would be very difficult to hand forge a barrel with straight outer flats on a twisted mandrel. Can be done but difficult.

More likely they were bored on a lathe then the flats of the rifling were scraped in. I don't want call them lands because they aren't lands in the modern sense. After the flats were scraped in the grooves we scraped in. It would be relatively simple to give bore twist when scraping in.

After the bore was made then the flats were draw filed in on the barrel. Swamping is draw filing the center section to a small diameter than either end, or in this case at least the back of the barrel smaller than the front.

These two rifles barrels appear to have been made by two different people. Fernando's barrel grooves are a different shape than Wards. This might be from erosion/corrosion from shooting. Fernando's gun appears to have been used quite a bit, Wards very little. I can only wonder what they drove down Fernando's bore to shoot. What ever it was, it looks like they used a rock to drive it! They beat the devil out of the muzzle!!

By the way you both need to run a rod down the bore and make sure they are not still loaded. The rod should reach all the way down to where the nipple is. Both bores could also do with a good cleaning and oiling. They look dry but dusty, a trap for moisture.

Have you shot them?

Philip · 3rd December 2006, 07:27 AM

There are a couple points on which I tend to differ.

"...generally, round barrels are damascus, octagonal ones were not."

In my experience as a collector, octagonal barrels of twist damascus steel are not uncommon in the Muslim world. They were in fact widely made in the the Ottoman Empire as well as Persia. Three Sind guns of superlative quality (two flint, one with a percussion lock roughly similar to Fernando's and Ward's examples), are in the Nasser D. Khalili collection of Islamic art and are published in THE ART OF WAR, by David Alexander (Oxford/Nour Foundation, 1992), cat. nos. 136-38. All of these guns have slender octagonal barrels with swamped muzzles and are of beautiful damascus steel.

"...don't believe that these rifle barrels were mandrel-formed"

The use of a mandrel in forging Indian twist barrels is clearly mentioned in the detailed description of barrel manufacture on page 61 of Wilbrahim Egerton's AN ILLUSTRATED HANDBOOK OF INDIAN ARMS... Bangkok: White Orchid Press, 1981 (facsimile repr of original London edn of 1880).

Lastly, I would like to add a comment to Double D's useful explanation of the manufacture of octagonal barrels. Although mastery of draw-filing technique has been a part of the gunsmith's repertoire of skills for centuries, artisans have learned long ago that preliminary shaping of the flats by forging saves considerable time and effort on the filing-bench. This is analogous to the cutlery trade as well : a knife- and swordmaker specializing in pattern welded blades once explained to me that he does as much of the basic contour and bevel shaping as possible by hammer, this also being amply illustrated on p 83 of Kapp/Yoshihara THE CRAFT OF THE JAPANESE SWORD.

Be that as it may, and returning to the world of guns, I would like to share a very interesting reference from Fernando's homeland, a rare Portuguese gunmaker's manual entitled ESPINGARDA PERFEYTA, e REGRAS PARA A SUA OPERACAO, com CIRCUNSTANCIAS NECESSARIAS PARA O SEU ARTIFICIO, e DOUTRINAS PARA O MELHOR ACERTO (The Perfect Gun, and rules for its use, together with necessary instructions for its construction and precepts for good shooting), written by Cesar Fiosconi and Jordao Guserio in 1718 (facsimile edn, trans by Rainer Daehnhardt, London: Sotheby Parke Bernet Publications Ltd., 1974). The authors devote an entire chapter (XIX) to the art of forging and finishing barrels by hammer without need for filing.

I have never encountered one of these Portuguese masterwork barrels whose surfaces were precisely shaped without need for any stock-removal whatsoever. However, I have seen a few rudely-made jezails from Afghanistan or Central Asia whose octagonal barrels clearly showed the imprint of the hammer throughout their surfaces, particularly on the side and bottom flats.

3rd December 2006, 07:27 AM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	disagreement on barrels There are a couple points on which I tend to differ. "...generally, round barrels are damascus, octagonal ones were not." In my experience as a collector, octagonal barrels of twist damascus steel are not uncommon in the Muslim world. They were in fact widely made in the the Ottoman Empire as well as Persia. Three Sind guns of superlative quality (two flint, one with a percussion lock roughly similar to Fernando's and Ward's examples), are in the Nasser D. Khalili collection of Islamic art and are published in THE ART OF WAR, by David Alexander (Oxford/Nour Foundation, 1992), cat. nos. 136-38. All of these guns have slender octagonal barrels with swamped muzzles and are of beautiful damascus steel. "...don't believe that these rifle barrels were mandrel-formed" The use of a mandrel in forging Indian twist barrels is clearly mentioned in the detailed description of barrel manufacture on page 61 of Wilbrahim Egerton's AN ILLUSTRATED HANDBOOK OF INDIAN ARMS... Bangkok: White Orchid Press, 1981 (facsimile repr of original London edn of 1880). Lastly, I would like to add a comment to Double D's useful explanation of the manufacture of octagonal barrels. Although mastery of draw-filing technique has been a part of the gunsmith's repertoire of skills for centuries, artisans have learned long ago that preliminary shaping of the flats by forging saves considerable time and effort on the filing-bench. This is analogous to the cutlery trade as well : a knife- and swordmaker specializing in pattern welded blades once explained to me that he does as much of the basic contour and bevel shaping as possible by hammer, this also being amply illustrated on p 83 of Kapp/Yoshihara THE CRAFT OF THE JAPANESE SWORD. Be that as it may, and returning to the world of guns, I would like to share a very interesting reference from Fernando's homeland, a rare Portuguese gunmaker's manual entitled ESPINGARDA PERFEYTA, e REGRAS PARA A SUA OPERACAO, com CIRCUNSTANCIAS NECESSARIAS PARA O SEU ARTIFICIO, e DOUTRINAS PARA O MELHOR ACERTO (The Perfect Gun, and rules for its use, together with necessary instructions for its construction and precepts for good shooting), written by Cesar Fiosconi and Jordao Guserio in 1718 (facsimile edn, trans by Rainer Daehnhardt, London: Sotheby Parke Bernet Publications Ltd., 1974). The authors devote an entire chapter (XIX) to the art of forging and finishing barrels by hammer without need for filing. I have never encountered one of these Portuguese masterwork barrels whose surfaces were precisely shaped without need for any stock-removal whatsoever. However, I have seen a few rudely-made jezails from Afghanistan or Central Asia whose octagonal barrels clearly showed the imprint of the hammer throughout their surfaces, particularly on the side and bottom flats.

2nd December 2006, 06:47 PM	#2
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	your right I should have read it closer

2nd December 2006, 09:02 PM	#4
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	The D Rings in front of the trigger guard are for rifle slings. There should be a second ring out on the fores tock ort barrel some where. The one with the double rings may be one ring for the sling and one for a chest hook sling. But that is just a guess. The flared muzzle by the way is exaggerated swamping. Created when the flats were filed in.

3rd December 2006, 05:30 AM	#6
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	I just don't believe these rifle barrel was mandrel formed, I wasn't there when they were made it so can't be sure. Could have been but I just have my doubts. What makes me think these barrel was not formed on mandrel is the inner rifling appears to have a twist to it. It would be very difficult to hand forge a barrel with straight outer flats on a twisted mandrel. Can be done but difficult. More likely they were bored on a lathe then the flats of the rifling were scraped in. I don't want call them lands because they aren't lands in the modern sense. After the flats were scraped in the grooves we scraped in. It would be relatively simple to give bore twist when scraping in. After the bore was made then the flats were draw filed in on the barrel. Swamping is draw filing the center section to a small diameter than either end, or in this case at least the back of the barrel smaller than the front. These two rifles barrels appear to have been made by two different people. Fernando's barrel grooves are a different shape than Wards. This might be from erosion/corrosion from shooting. Fernando's gun appears to have been used quite a bit, Wards very little. I can only wonder what they drove down Fernando's bore to shoot. What ever it was, it looks like they used a rock to drive it! They beat the devil out of the muzzle!! By the way you both need to run a rod down the bore and make sure they are not still loaded. The rod should reach all the way down to where the nipple is. Both bores could also do with a good cleaning and oiling. They look dry but dusty, a trap for moisture. Have you shot them?