Turkish?Georgian? Polish? Shamshir

Jeff D · 16th February 2005, 02:51 AM

Great call Jim on the blade! I would never have guessed a Spanish motto. The style looks Eastern European / Caucasian to me, and was thinking of Romania with its Latin based language. I had to reread Elgood today, and he confirms your observation of Caucasian smiths copying trade marks and inscriptions.
Now to explain the hilt? I wonder if the sword was booty taken by a Turkish officer during the Arabian / Syrian campaigns (WWI), then mounted with a Turkish hilt. Perhaps the inscription on the grip band may help.
I will have to rewatch Lawrence of Arabia again this weekend!

All the best
Jeff

erlikhan · 16th February 2005, 07:25 PM

i am confused more. today i left the saber to an antique weapons master. He will remove rust, clean the blade and silver, small repairs to the leather professionaly. He says, everything on the sword is original, produced together, not any replacement and nothing with style of floral decoration around the letters and scabbard mountings being unfamiliar to Turkish, especially Turcoman swords (partially eastern Turkey,northern Iraq and Iran till Caspian sea). I wonder about the inscription on the grip strap more now. There is one more hand writing on the scabbard mounting too. I can issue it later when the saber returns. i guess, Spanish insc. can possibly mean a Jewish owner ordering it to workshops for himself, as most of Jews in Turkey had migrated from Spain in past and they still talk a dialect densely mixed with Spanish.Who knows?

i uploaded pics. of the shashka and American sword too ,which i won in the same lot with the saber.
http://www.pbase.com/erlik29/inbox

may i learn your comments especially about the American? Is it original army item? it says Zupco-Spain on one face, and there is a David's star writing "proved" in the star, on the other face. blade 79 cm.

regards

Rivkin · 16th February 2005, 08:14 PM

Eirkhan, I think that shashka is "gurda" - I think I see the "jaws". I've seen these guys getting 1000$-2000$ or so... The sword - is not it a USMC Mamluk sword ?

erlikhan · 16th February 2005, 08:28 PM

Rivkin, if you mean the dot and curve stamps on the blade by "jaws", right. I don't know the specialities of "gurda". Can you pls tell more ? But i can say the price level is same here.
"United States Marines" writes on the American.

Rick · 16th February 2005, 08:46 PM

Google strikes again !
http://www.marines.com/about_marines/thesword.asp
History of the US Marine mameluke sword .

Rivkin · 16th February 2005, 08:49 PM

Gurda is what is considered to be the highest grade of shashka. There are two theories concerning the origin:
1. It is a perverted Genoese symbolics of two toothsaw-like arches.
2. It is similar to german Eisenhauer - something that can chop iron, as jaws chop food.

Gurda therefore is either a perferted Genoa or it's from a chechen "Gurda" - "look", supposedly this used to be said before doing something distinguishing.

Gurda can be recongized by the symbol of two arches with small lines ("teeth") running perpendicular to them.

The american sword is probably a vintage US Marine core Officer sword.

erlikhan · 16th February 2005, 09:20 PM

Thanks for the info. Can't have much age. Not real ivory. Plastic. There are both types on ebay at the moment. Ivory hilt on ww2 Marine. i guess not long after ww2 they started to use plastic instead of ivory, right?

Rivkin · 16th February 2005, 10:50 PM

Well, that's _the_ reason I don't collect shashkas - overblown, speculative market for some modern things with "jaws" or "wolves" on them, going for the price of a good XVII century sword.

16th February 2005, 07:25 PM	#2
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	i am confused more. today i left the saber to an antique weapons master. He will remove rust, clean the blade and silver, small repairs to the leather professionaly. He says, everything on the sword is original, produced together, not any replacement and nothing with style of floral decoration around the letters and scabbard mountings being unfamiliar to Turkish, especially Turcoman swords (partially eastern Turkey,northern Iraq and Iran till Caspian sea). I wonder about the inscription on the grip strap more now. There is one more hand writing on the scabbard mounting too. I can issue it later when the saber returns. i guess, Spanish insc. can possibly mean a Jewish owner ordering it to workshops for himself, as most of Jews in Turkey had migrated from Spain in past and they still talk a dialect densely mixed with Spanish.Who knows? i uploaded pics. of the shashka and American sword too ,which i won in the same lot with the saber. http://www.pbase.com/erlik29/inbox may i learn your comments especially about the American? Is it original army item? it says Zupco-Spain on one face, and there is a David's star writing "proved" in the star, on the other face. blade 79 cm. regards Last edited by erlikhan; 16th February 2005 at 07:39 PM.

16th February 2005, 08:14 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Eirkhan, I think that shashka is "gurda" - I think I see the "jaws". I've seen these guys getting 1000$-2000$ or so... The sword - is not it a USMC Mamluk sword ? Last edited by Rivkin; 16th February 2005 at 08:25 PM.

16th February 2005, 02:51 AM	#1
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Great call Jim on the blade! I would never have guessed a Spanish motto. The style looks Eastern European / Caucasian to me, and was thinking of Romania with its Latin based language. I had to reread Elgood today, and he confirms your observation of Caucasian smiths copying trade marks and inscriptions. Now to explain the hilt? I wonder if the sword was booty taken by a Turkish officer during the Arabian / Syrian campaigns (WWI), then mounted with a Turkish hilt. Perhaps the inscription on the grip band may help. I will have to rewatch Lawrence of Arabia again this weekend! All the best Jeff

16th February 2005, 08:28 PM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Rivkin, if you mean the dot and curve stamps on the blade by "jaws", right. I don't know the specialities of "gurda". Can you pls tell more ? But i can say the price level is same here. "United States Marines" writes on the American.

16th February 2005, 08:46 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Google strikes again ! http://www.marines.com/about_marines/thesword.asp History of the US Marine mameluke sword .

16th February 2005, 08:49 PM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Gurda is what is considered to be the highest grade of shashka. There are two theories concerning the origin: 1. It is a perverted Genoese symbolics of two toothsaw-like arches. 2. It is similar to german Eisenhauer - something that can chop iron, as jaws chop food. Gurda therefore is either a perferted Genoa or it's from a chechen "Gurda" - "look", supposedly this used to be said before doing something distinguishing. Gurda can be recongized by the symbol of two arches with small lines ("teeth") running perpendicular to them. The american sword is probably a vintage US Marine core Officer sword.

16th February 2005, 09:20 PM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Thanks for the info. Can't have much age. Not real ivory. Plastic. There are both types on ebay at the moment. Ivory hilt on ww2 Marine. i guess not long after ww2 they started to use plastic instead of ivory, right?

16th February 2005, 10:50 PM	#8
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, that's _the_ reason I don't collect shashkas - overblown, speculative market for some modern things with "jaws" or "wolves" on them, going for the price of a good XVII century sword.