1908/ 1912 Pattern British Army Cavalry Sword

Jim McDougall · 1st December 2006, 03:59 AM

Hi Chris,
Thank you so much!

I agree, these huge swords certainly were a bit awkward, though there was a lot of fanciful hyperbole about them being the ultimate sword design etc. I had a M1908 once that was great as it was entirely leather covered, hilt and all. It felt heavy and sturdy etc, but as you note, awkward for any sort of movement.
Thanks again,
All the best,
Jim

katana · 1st December 2006, 12:29 PM

Hi Jim,
thank you for your 'colourful' (colorful

) input

, do you know whether hilts were modified for 'field use' ? The cut across the guard has been done very neatly and where it would have connected to the pommel is so well done, that you would never know that it was cut at this point at all. It must have been done a very long time ago ....I am sure it isn't a recent adaption.

katana · 1st December 2006, 01:29 PM

Hi Jim,
I forgot to mention .....the 'proof' mark has the word 'PROVED' arcing around the curve of the circular mark ....in between the P and D is stamped a shape similar to pic below, it is quite worn.....obviously looks to be a crown..

Jim McDougall · 2nd December 2006, 01:18 AM

Hi Katana,
You bet!

Couldn't resist reminiscing...colourfully

!!!

Thanks for the update on the 'proofmark'. This presents some interesting possibilities with the crown shown. These 'proofmarks' eventually became more of a badge than distinctly indicating a maker during the advent of commercialism in the latter 19th c. It seems that they often reflected a retailer or outfitter, not necessarily the maker of the blade.
The crown was used in this 'proof' cartouche only by two firms; one being Walter Locke & Co. of Calcutta, the other being the famed gunmaking firm J.Manton & Co. of Calcutta. Although gunmakers, the Manton Co. were established from 1825, and by the early 20th century very active and well known outfitters, supplying British officers. I once owned a beautiful British officers 'mameluke' sabre by Manton of Calcutta.

Since King George V reigned from 1910-36 , and you indicate that cypher on the sword, we can presume service in that period. The Manton firm was in business well through that period as well, I am uncertain about the Walter Locke Co.

Swords in use while in service militarily would normally not have been modified outside regulations or orders, however, the British in Indian service do not seem to have held as closely to strict regulations while in the field. It would appear that there were some concerns about the M1897 swords (modified officially from the M1895 by having the inside edge of the hilt turned down to prevent chafing the tunics). In "Sword, Lance and Bayonet" (C.Ffoulkes & C. Hopkinson, 1938, Cambridge, p.65) the authors note that "...the one obvious drawback to this sword is the width of the handguard, which, like the Scottish broadsword, interferes with the free movement of the right hand".

As noted in my earlier post, there were of course many years of campaigns and combat during the British Raj well into the 20th century, primarily it seems throughout the Northwest Frontier. It would seem quite plausible that an infantry officer may have had such alteration completed with his sword for combat use, and there were many native armourers available in local regions who would have accomplished such alteration at the request of the officer.
Many British swords were fitted with native blades resulting in interesting hybrid variations, and conversely Indian hilts are often found mounted with British sabre blades, especially the M1796 light cavalry blades.

As always, these often humble looking pieces do have stories to tell!!

All the best,
Jim

katana · 2nd December 2006, 07:24 PM

Much appreciated Jim

Thank you

1st December 2006, 01:29 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, I forgot to mention .....the 'proof' mark has the word 'PROVED' arcing around the curve of the circular mark ....in between the P and D is stamped a shape similar to pic below, it is quite worn.....obviously looks to be a crown.. Attached Images

1st December 2006, 03:59 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Hi Chris, Thank you so much! I agree, these huge swords certainly were a bit awkward, though there was a lot of fanciful hyperbole about them being the ultimate sword design etc. I had a M1908 once that was great as it was entirely leather covered, hilt and all. It felt heavy and sturdy etc, but as you note, awkward for any sort of movement. Thanks again, All the best, Jim

1st December 2006, 12:29 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, thank you for your 'colourful' (colorful ) input , do you know whether hilts were modified for 'field use' ? The cut across the guard has been done very neatly and where it would have connected to the pommel is so well done, that you would never know that it was cut at this point at all. It must have been done a very long time ago ....I am sure it isn't a recent adaption.

2nd December 2006, 01:18 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Hi Katana, You bet! Couldn't resist reminiscing...colourfully !!! Thanks for the update on the 'proofmark'. This presents some interesting possibilities with the crown shown. These 'proofmarks' eventually became more of a badge than distinctly indicating a maker during the advent of commercialism in the latter 19th c. It seems that they often reflected a retailer or outfitter, not necessarily the maker of the blade. The crown was used in this 'proof' cartouche only by two firms; one being Walter Locke & Co. of Calcutta, the other being the famed gunmaking firm J.Manton & Co. of Calcutta. Although gunmakers, the Manton Co. were established from 1825, and by the early 20th century very active and well known outfitters, supplying British officers. I once owned a beautiful British officers 'mameluke' sabre by Manton of Calcutta. Since King George V reigned from 1910-36 , and you indicate that cypher on the sword, we can presume service in that period. The Manton firm was in business well through that period as well, I am uncertain about the Walter Locke Co. Swords in use while in service militarily would normally not have been modified outside regulations or orders, however, the British in Indian service do not seem to have held as closely to strict regulations while in the field. It would appear that there were some concerns about the M1897 swords (modified officially from the M1895 by having the inside edge of the hilt turned down to prevent chafing the tunics). In "Sword, Lance and Bayonet" (C.Ffoulkes & C. Hopkinson, 1938, Cambridge, p.65) the authors note that "...the one obvious drawback to this sword is the width of the handguard, which, like the Scottish broadsword, interferes with the free movement of the right hand". As noted in my earlier post, there were of course many years of campaigns and combat during the British Raj well into the 20th century, primarily it seems throughout the Northwest Frontier. It would seem quite plausible that an infantry officer may have had such alteration completed with his sword for combat use, and there were many native armourers available in local regions who would have accomplished such alteration at the request of the officer. Many British swords were fitted with native blades resulting in interesting hybrid variations, and conversely Indian hilts are often found mounted with British sabre blades, especially the M1796 light cavalry blades. As always, these often humble looking pieces do have stories to tell!! All the best, Jim

2nd December 2006, 07:24 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Much appreciated Jim Thank you