Brass Dagger

Rick · 30th November 2006, 12:44 AM

IIRC some Indo/Malay cultures believe that a wound made with a Copper blade is invariably fatal.

Toer mentions this in the Buru Quartet , again IIRC.

Try a Google ; YMMV.

Robert · 30th November 2006, 01:46 AM

Rick,
Thank you again for the information. Not trying to sound too stupid but what do IIRC and YMMV mean?

Robert

Rick · 30th November 2006, 01:54 AM

If I Recall Correctly
and
Your Mileage May Vary

Robert · 30th November 2006, 03:22 AM

OK, Now I do feel stupid!

Rick · 30th November 2006, 02:55 PM

Sorry Robert , I cut my teeth on USENET Newsgroups .

A lot of those originated there .

Have you had any luck Googling Malay beliefs about copper weapons ?

Robert · 30th November 2006, 03:39 PM

Hi Rick,
No luck so far but I don't give up easily.

I'm sure if I keep on looking that I will find something. If it was believed that a wound made with a copper blade is invariably fatal would these have mostly been carried as a defensive weapon an offensive weapon or as an instrument of revenge?

Robert

Battara · 1st December 2006, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

IIRC some Indo/Malay cultures believe that a wound made with a Copper blade is invariably fatal.

I have heard this before. Some of this I can attribute to the oxidation of copper which is fatal, a copper oxide poisoning (thus tin was added to the bottom of copper pots).

Any other purpose -

If you find anything else please post, I am not aware of any Filipino reason for a copper blade.

Robert · 1st December 2006, 09:03 PM

Hi Jose,
So far I haven't able to find anything specific on Filipino use of copper blades but I have found a lot of information on other cultures beliefs on the using of copper for blades. If anyone else here on the forum has any information on this subject please post. Here are a couple of new pictures. I had to take these inside as we had a 14" snowfall last night and because of all the metal I have in me I cannot tolerate cold weather at all.

Total length 8"
Blade length 4-1/2"
Blade width at hilt 1"

not2sharp · 3rd December 2006, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

IIRC some Indo/Malay cultures believe that a wound made with a Copper blade is invariably fatal.

Toer mentions this in the Buru Quartet , again IIRC.

Try a Google ; YMMV.

Then again; perhaps the locals were tempted by the mass availability of brass (spent shell casings) abandon all over the place after WWII.

n2s

Robert · 3rd December 2006, 06:14 AM

not2sharp,
I thought about this but the blade is copper not brass plus I believe this to be pre WWII. What I am wondering about is what was the purpose of making a blade out of copper and not steel?

Robert

Tim Simmons · 3rd December 2006, 05:34 PM

The blade.

Robert · 4th December 2006, 05:02 AM

Tim, Is this crossed pinned to secure it to the shaft? It definitely looks like it could be quite functional to me. Is it brass and could you post a side picture of the blade to give a better idea of its design?

Robert

Tim Simmons · 4th December 2006, 06:58 PM

Robert sorry for not giving all the information in one. Sometimes I have to do other things than talk and look at ethno weapons

. Yes this has a large iron pin in the socket part of the spear blade. The blade is 5mm at the forte with a thick central part which is decorated. The blade part alone is 19cm long. the whole construction is as strong if not stronger than many iron/steel bladed spear. I did show this many years ago then I suggested it was Saharan. I now think the wood of the halft is from more tropical parts of west Africa, Dahomey? only speculation when compered to other wood staffs. As to function, I am not sure if it would have been used in a combat situation. I am sure it was used in the way a spear would be used, the swollen end/handle is just made for pushing the spear forward. The imagination takes over, thats why I find this piece just a little scary.

Robert · 4th December 2006, 09:19 PM

Tim, I only have one spear (only the head itself ) in my collection. It is from Africa and made of thin steel and looks no where near as serviceable as your example. I would agree by the way that yours was made that it was not just ceremonial but made with enough added strength to make it quite functional as well. Maybe this was just the thing that you would take with you to the big dance just for that one jerk that kept trying to put the move on your best girl.

30th November 2006, 12:44 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	For What It's Worth IIRC some Indo/Malay cultures believe that a wound made with a Copper blade is invariably fatal. Toer mentions this in the Buru Quartet , again IIRC. Try a Google ; YMMV.

30th November 2006, 01:54 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Web Acronyms If I Recall Correctly and Your Mileage May Vary

1st December 2006, 09:03 PM	#8
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Jose, So far I haven't able to find anything specific on Filipino use of copper blades but I have found a lot of information on other cultures beliefs on the using of copper for blades. If anyone else here on the forum has any information on this subject please post. Here are a couple of new pictures. I had to take these inside as we had a 14" snowfall last night and because of all the metal I have in me I cannot tolerate cold weather at all. Total length 8" Blade length 4-1/2" Blade width at hilt 1" Attached Images

30th November 2006, 01:46 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Rick, Thank you again for the information. Not trying to sound too stupid but what do IIRC and YMMV mean? Robert

30th November 2006, 03:22 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	OK, Now I do feel stupid!

30th November 2006, 02:55 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Sorry Robert , I cut my teeth on USENET Newsgroups . A lot of those originated there . Have you had any luck Googling Malay beliefs about copper weapons ?

30th November 2006, 03:39 PM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Rick, No luck so far but I don't give up easily. I'm sure if I keep on looking that I will find something. If it was believed that a wound made with a copper blade is invariably fatal would these have mostly been carried as a defensive weapon an offensive weapon or as an instrument of revenge? Robert

3rd December 2006, 06:14 AM	#10
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	not2sharp, I thought about this but the blade is copper not brass plus I believe this to be pre WWII. What I am wondering about is what was the purpose of making a blade out of copper and not steel? Robert

3rd December 2006, 05:34 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	The blade.

4th December 2006, 05:02 AM	#12
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Tim, Is this crossed pinned to secure it to the shaft? It definitely looks like it could be quite functional to me. Is it brass and could you post a side picture of the blade to give a better idea of its design? Robert

4th December 2006, 06:58 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Robert sorry for not giving all the information in one. Sometimes I have to do other things than talk and look at ethno weapons . Yes this has a large iron pin in the socket part of the spear blade. The blade is 5mm at the forte with a thick central part which is decorated. The blade part alone is 19cm long. the whole construction is as strong if not stronger than many iron/steel bladed spear. I did show this many years ago then I suggested it was Saharan. I now think the wood of the halft is from more tropical parts of west Africa, Dahomey? only speculation when compered to other wood staffs. As to function, I am not sure if it would have been used in a combat situation. I am sure it was used in the way a spear would be used, the swollen end/handle is just made for pushing the spear forward. The imagination takes over, thats why I find this piece just a little scary.

4th December 2006, 09:19 PM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Tim, I only have one spear (only the head itself ) in my collection. It is from Africa and made of thin steel and looks no where near as serviceable as your example. I would agree by the way that yours was made that it was not just ceremonial but made with enough added strength to make it quite functional as well. Maybe this was just the thing that you would take with you to the big dance just for that one jerk that kept trying to put the move on your best girl.