Turkish?Georgian? Polish? Shamshir

Jim McDougall · 16th February 2005, 12:27 AM

Thank you for confirming that Marc! I was pretty sure I could see the motto, but the gold calligraphy in so heavy it was hard to make out.
As occurs in trade blades in most of the centers, marketability is key, and that so termed 'Spanish motto' is copied in variation in Italy and France as well as Spain, however it is generally attributed to Spanish origin (noted in "The Smallsword in England" John Aylward, 1945, p.43).
I would suspect this blade to possibly have Caucasian origins, as the style of calligraphy and the large lettering that covers the entire blade panel resembles the award sabre examples I noted and many of the letter shapes have similarities to alphabets such as Mkhedruli (Georgian). While the motto is in interpretive styling of Latin, the lettering seems to reflect some of the letters of that alphabet.
I have seen many trade blades carrying mottos and names that simulate original examples of these from the countries or regions of origin, that are not accurately translatable. It is much like the 'thuluth' inscriptions on the Sudanese weapons, intended to carry stylized effect .

As for the mounts and hilt on this sabre, I am inclined to agree with Jeff, that Syria may be a likely point of furbishing where the blade and this hilt may have been put together. This location was key for mounting sabres intended for the Arabian market. It seems that the wire wrapped hilt (note the Syrian sabre in my avatar which has the wire wrap on the grip) and again the 'agrab' on scabbard throat suggest this. The pistol grip Ottoman hilt to me seems very unusual, but still well placed with appealing to Arabian chiefs and ranking tribal members seeking individuality in their personal sabres.

Again, speculation based on the comprehensive elements of the sabre, but with what seem to be plausible observations. With this being a trade blade from Caucasian regions, which often went to Syrian ateliers, this would explain the obvious mismatch in the hilt covering part of the guard.

Really is a beauty of a sabre!!!

Best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 16th February 2005, 03:51 AM

Great call Jim on the blade! I would never have guessed a Spanish motto. The style looks Eastern European / Caucasian to me, and was thinking of Romania with its Latin based language. I had to reread Elgood today, and he confirms your observation of Caucasian smiths copying trade marks and inscriptions.
Now to explain the hilt? I wonder if the sword was booty taken by a Turkish officer during the Arabian / Syrian campaigns (WWI), then mounted with a Turkish hilt. Perhaps the inscription on the grip band may help.
I will have to rewatch Lawrence of Arabia again this weekend!

All the best
Jeff

erlikhan · 16th February 2005, 08:25 PM

i am confused more. today i left the saber to an antique weapons master. He will remove rust, clean the blade and silver, small repairs to the leather professionaly. He says, everything on the sword is original, produced together, not any replacement and nothing with style of floral decoration around the letters and scabbard mountings being unfamiliar to Turkish, especially Turcoman swords (partially eastern Turkey,northern Iraq and Iran till Caspian sea). I wonder about the inscription on the grip strap more now. There is one more hand writing on the scabbard mounting too. I can issue it later when the saber returns. i guess, Spanish insc. can possibly mean a Jewish owner ordering it to workshops for himself, as most of Jews in Turkey had migrated from Spain in past and they still talk a dialect densely mixed with Spanish.Who knows?

i uploaded pics. of the shashka and American sword too ,which i won in the same lot with the saber.
http://www.pbase.com/erlik29/inbox

may i learn your comments especially about the American? Is it original army item? it says Zupco-Spain on one face, and there is a David's star writing "proved" in the star, on the other face. blade 79 cm.

regards

Rivkin · 16th February 2005, 09:14 PM

Eirkhan, I think that shashka is "gurda" - I think I see the "jaws". I've seen these guys getting 1000$-2000$ or so... The sword - is not it a USMC Mamluk sword ?

erlikhan · 16th February 2005, 09:28 PM

Rivkin, if you mean the dot and curve stamps on the blade by "jaws", right. I don't know the specialities of "gurda". Can you pls tell more ? But i can say the price level is same here.
"United States Marines" writes on the American.

Rick · 16th February 2005, 09:46 PM

Google strikes again !
http://www.marines.com/about_marines/thesword.asp
History of the US Marine mameluke sword .

Rivkin · 16th February 2005, 09:49 PM

Gurda is what is considered to be the highest grade of shashka. There are two theories concerning the origin:
1. It is a perverted Genoese symbolics of two toothsaw-like arches.
2. It is similar to german Eisenhauer - something that can chop iron, as jaws chop food.

Gurda therefore is either a perferted Genoa or it's from a chechen "Gurda" - "look", supposedly this used to be said before doing something distinguishing.

Gurda can be recongized by the symbol of two arches with small lines ("teeth") running perpendicular to them.

The american sword is probably a vintage US Marine core Officer sword.

erlikhan · 16th February 2005, 10:20 PM

Thanks for the info. Can't have much age. Not real ivory. Plastic. There are both types on ebay at the moment. Ivory hilt on ww2 Marine. i guess not long after ww2 they started to use plastic instead of ivory, right?

16th February 2005, 12:27 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,733	Thank you for confirming that Marc! I was pretty sure I could see the motto, but the gold calligraphy in so heavy it was hard to make out. As occurs in trade blades in most of the centers, marketability is key, and that so termed 'Spanish motto' is copied in variation in Italy and France as well as Spain, however it is generally attributed to Spanish origin (noted in "The Smallsword in England" John Aylward, 1945, p.43). I would suspect this blade to possibly have Caucasian origins, as the style of calligraphy and the large lettering that covers the entire blade panel resembles the award sabre examples I noted and many of the letter shapes have similarities to alphabets such as Mkhedruli (Georgian). While the motto is in interpretive styling of Latin, the lettering seems to reflect some of the letters of that alphabet. I have seen many trade blades carrying mottos and names that simulate original examples of these from the countries or regions of origin, that are not accurately translatable. It is much like the 'thuluth' inscriptions on the Sudanese weapons, intended to carry stylized effect . As for the mounts and hilt on this sabre, I am inclined to agree with Jeff, that Syria may be a likely point of furbishing where the blade and this hilt may have been put together. This location was key for mounting sabres intended for the Arabian market. It seems that the wire wrapped hilt (note the Syrian sabre in my avatar which has the wire wrap on the grip) and again the 'agrab' on scabbard throat suggest this. The pistol grip Ottoman hilt to me seems very unusual, but still well placed with appealing to Arabian chiefs and ranking tribal members seeking individuality in their personal sabres. Again, speculation based on the comprehensive elements of the sabre, but with what seem to be plausible observations. With this being a trade blade from Caucasian regions, which often went to Syrian ateliers, this would explain the obvious mismatch in the hilt covering part of the guard. Really is a beauty of a sabre!!! Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th February 2005 at 12:37 AM.

16th February 2005, 08:25 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	i am confused more. today i left the saber to an antique weapons master. He will remove rust, clean the blade and silver, small repairs to the leather professionaly. He says, everything on the sword is original, produced together, not any replacement and nothing with style of floral decoration around the letters and scabbard mountings being unfamiliar to Turkish, especially Turcoman swords (partially eastern Turkey,northern Iraq and Iran till Caspian sea). I wonder about the inscription on the grip strap more now. There is one more hand writing on the scabbard mounting too. I can issue it later when the saber returns. i guess, Spanish insc. can possibly mean a Jewish owner ordering it to workshops for himself, as most of Jews in Turkey had migrated from Spain in past and they still talk a dialect densely mixed with Spanish.Who knows? i uploaded pics. of the shashka and American sword too ,which i won in the same lot with the saber. http://www.pbase.com/erlik29/inbox may i learn your comments especially about the American? Is it original army item? it says Zupco-Spain on one face, and there is a David's star writing "proved" in the star, on the other face. blade 79 cm. regards Last edited by erlikhan; 16th February 2005 at 08:39 PM.

16th February 2005, 09:14 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Eirkhan, I think that shashka is "gurda" - I think I see the "jaws". I've seen these guys getting 1000$-2000$ or so... The sword - is not it a USMC Mamluk sword ? Last edited by Rivkin; 16th February 2005 at 09:25 PM.

16th February 2005, 03:51 AM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Great call Jim on the blade! I would never have guessed a Spanish motto. The style looks Eastern European / Caucasian to me, and was thinking of Romania with its Latin based language. I had to reread Elgood today, and he confirms your observation of Caucasian smiths copying trade marks and inscriptions. Now to explain the hilt? I wonder if the sword was booty taken by a Turkish officer during the Arabian / Syrian campaigns (WWI), then mounted with a Turkish hilt. Perhaps the inscription on the grip band may help. I will have to rewatch Lawrence of Arabia again this weekend! All the best Jeff

16th February 2005, 09:28 PM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Rivkin, if you mean the dot and curve stamps on the blade by "jaws", right. I don't know the specialities of "gurda". Can you pls tell more ? But i can say the price level is same here. "United States Marines" writes on the American.

16th February 2005, 09:46 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,378	Google strikes again ! http://www.marines.com/about_marines/thesword.asp History of the US Marine mameluke sword .

16th February 2005, 09:49 PM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Gurda is what is considered to be the highest grade of shashka. There are two theories concerning the origin: 1. It is a perverted Genoese symbolics of two toothsaw-like arches. 2. It is similar to german Eisenhauer - something that can chop iron, as jaws chop food. Gurda therefore is either a perferted Genoa or it's from a chechen "Gurda" - "look", supposedly this used to be said before doing something distinguishing. Gurda can be recongized by the symbol of two arches with small lines ("teeth") running perpendicular to them. The american sword is probably a vintage US Marine core Officer sword.

16th February 2005, 10:20 PM	#8
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Thanks for the info. Can't have much age. Not real ivory. Plastic. There are both types on ebay at the moment. Ivory hilt on ww2 Marine. i guess not long after ww2 they started to use plastic instead of ivory, right?