Possible Pajajaran Keris for comment....

BSMStar · 15th February 2005, 11:26 PM

I hope these are helpful...

Henk · 16th February 2005, 10:05 AM

Yes, that is a new peksi. Welded again to the keris. it is also possible that the old peksi is still present. The age of your keris and the many etchings might have eaten away the original peksi. This new peksi could be a tube on the lower site and placed over the remaining peksi. Nevertheless a beatiful old blade in my opinion.

Jan · 16th February 2005, 10:08 AM

Hello,
the letters "HB IX" on the bag stand for Hamengku Buwana IX, the former sultan of Yogyakarta. He was the traditional ruler of Yogyakarta from 1939 until his death in 1988. He is still very popular and highly honored for his role in the struggle for Indonesian independence 1945-49.
The emblem looks similar to the coat-of-arms of the Keraton Ngayogyakarta Hadiningrat, his palace.

BSMStar · 16th February 2005, 12:54 PM

Thank you Henk and Jan for your input!!!!

The blade looks like it has pamor; do you think it is with nickel or a phosphorus iron?

The dapur and size reminds me of a 14c Keris, any ideas?

Thank you for your help!

BSMStar

Henk · 16th February 2005, 06:51 PM

The blade has pamor, thats for sure. Tammens wrote in his books about different colors of pamor depending on the kind of metalls that were used. Tammens wrote also about research on the metal of keris and that older keris show after analysis that during the forging-proces meteorite pamor was used. Meteorite metal contains nickle in different degrees.

In my opinion it is an very old blade but I don't have the courage to date it.

BSMStar · 24th February 2005, 10:17 PM

With so many artificially aged Keris for sale, I was hoping to here more ideas about this Keris... is it "authentic" (meaning is it old)??

What make an old Keris a Pusaka (once it is sold, is it still considered an heirloom)?

This is a great link:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/

Please note the transitions (see #3, it is similar to the above Keris).

I think the Keris bag is "made up." But can anyone tell me about it, have you seen others?

Any other ideas? I want the good and the bad news (I learn more from the bad news

) Thanks!

BSMStar

marto suwignyo · 25th February 2005, 12:05 AM

YES, IT IS VERY DEFINITELY AN OLD KERIS. IT IS IN VERY BAD CONDITION, BUT IT IS AN OLD KERIS, AND BEFORE IT BECAME SO BADLY DEGRADED, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A FAIRLY ATTRACTIVE KERIS. FROM WHAT I CAN SEE IN THE PHOTO, IT LOOKS AS IF IT COULD BE PAJAJARAN, BUT TO CORRECTLY READ THE INDICATORS OF TANGGUH,IT IS OFTEN NECESSARY TO HANDLE A BLADE.THE CONTRASTING PAMOR MATERIAL IN YOUR KERIS PROBABLY IS WHITE IRON.

THE WORD "PUSAKA" MEANS, IN BROAD TERMS, "HEIRLOOM", BUT IT IS APPLIED COLLOQUIALLY TO KERIS, TOMBAK, AND OTHER WESI AJI TO MEAN THE ACTUAL BLADE OF THE KERIS OR TOMBAK.
WHEN THE WORD IS USED IN A FORMAL SENSE , IT HAS AN IMPLICATION THAT GOES BEYOND THE IDEA WE ASSOCIATE WITH THE IDEA OF HEIRLOOM. A PUSAKA KERIS IS A KERIS WHICH BELONGS WITHIN A KINSHIP GROUP, AND DESCENDS FROM ONE GENERATION TO THE NEXT. IT IS BELIEVED TO TIE THE CURRENT HOLDER OF THE KERIS TO HIS FOREBEARS, AND ALSO TO THE OTHER MEMBERS OF HIS KINSHIP GROUP.IT CAN BE REGARDED AS A COSMIC CONNECTOR THAT JOINS PAST AND PRESENT IN ONE DIMENSION, AND ALL IN A KINSHIP GROUP IN THE PRESENT DIMENSION.
A PUSAKA DOES NOT NEED TO BE AN ITEM OF WESI AJI, IT CAN BE A RICE POT, A SADDLE, OR EVEN A BUILDING.

A JAVANESE RULER NEEDS TO HAVE POSSESSION OF THE ROYAL PUSAKAS TO LEGITIMISE HIS RULE.

THE CLOTH BAG IS CALLED A SINGAP. IT IS THE WAY IN WHICH JAVANESE KERIS ARE NORMALLY STORED. EVEN WHEN A KERIS IS STORED IN A SPECIAL KERIS CHEST, IT WILL NORMALLY BE PLACED IN A SINGAP FIRST.

nechesh · 25th February 2005, 12:05 AM

Wayne, sorry i took so long to jump in on this one. I love keris with the kul buntet pamor. I own 2 myself. Something very mystical and archetypical about that swirling spiral.

I boast no real skills at judging tangguh, but i will go out on a limb and suggest that this keris is genuinely old. How old i can't say but i would imagine at least 16thC. As for the keris bag, these are very traditional and i have one for most of my keris. None of mine have any embroidery on them, but they come in all different types of material. Does anyone know the traditional name for these?
Pusaka means heirloom and refers to any sacred object of power that is passed down through the generations. This is about the transference of power and i believe this idea originally started on the royal level with the practice filtering down to the common man. It is an arguable point, but my feeling tends to be that once the chain is broken the keris cannot rightfully be called pusaka.

BSMStar · 25th February 2005, 06:30 PM

Thank you marto suwignyo and nechesh!

It seems the verdict is that this is a very old blade.

I have a basic understanding of "Pusaka" yet, my Western mind still struggles to fully reason and understand the complete meaning.

It seems that once the “Honor” of the title of Pusaka is bestowed on an object, it can just as easily be lost or removed. In my thinking, it would seem that Pusaka would be associate with the object in question, rather than being associated with the people in possession of it, no? But it seems, that I am incorrect. Otherwise, once it becomes a Pusaka, it would always remain a Pusaka… true?

No matter, I fell in love with this Keris the first time I laid eyes on it. It called to me in that way that only a Keris can sometimes do…. This Keris has trod the stones of many years and it is not the fault of the Keris that it finds itself in its current condition. It will always have a place of honor and respect in my home… and again treated as an heirloom.

I really, really do appreciate the help you all have given me!. But I always want to learn more!

15th February 2005, 11:26 PM	#1
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Here are some more Pictrues I hope these are helpful... Attached Images

24th February 2005, 10:17 PM	#6
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Pusaka With so many artificially aged Keris for sale, I was hoping to here more ideas about this Keris... is it "authentic" (meaning is it old)?? What make an old Keris a Pusaka (once it is sold, is it still considered an heirloom)? This is a great link: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/ Please note the transitions (see #3, it is similar to the above Keris). I think the Keris bag is "made up." But can anyone tell me about it, have you seen others? Any other ideas? I want the good and the bad news (I learn more from the bad news ) Thanks! BSMStar Last edited by BSMStar; 24th February 2005 at 10:44 PM.

25th February 2005, 06:30 PM	#9
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Thank you marto suwignyo and nechesh! It seems the verdict is that this is a very old blade. I have a basic understanding of "Pusaka" yet, my Western mind still struggles to fully reason and understand the complete meaning. It seems that once the “Honor” of the title of Pusaka is bestowed on an object, it can just as easily be lost or removed. In my thinking, it would seem that Pusaka would be associate with the object in question, rather than being associated with the people in possession of it, no? But it seems, that I am incorrect. Otherwise, once it becomes a Pusaka, it would always remain a Pusaka… true? No matter, I fell in love with this Keris the first time I laid eyes on it. It called to me in that way that only a Keris can sometimes do…. This Keris has trod the stones of many years and it is not the fault of the Keris that it finds itself in its current condition. It will always have a place of honor and respect in my home… and again treated as an heirloom. I really, really do appreciate the help you all have given me!. But I always want to learn more! Last edited by BSMStar; 25th February 2005 at 07:03 PM.

16th February 2005, 10:05 AM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Yes, that is a new peksi. Welded again to the keris. it is also possible that the old peksi is still present. The age of your keris and the many etchings might have eaten away the original peksi. This new peksi could be a tube on the lower site and placed over the remaining peksi. Nevertheless a beatiful old blade in my opinion.

16th February 2005, 10:08 AM	#3
Jan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 8	Hello, the letters "HB IX" on the bag stand for Hamengku Buwana IX, the former sultan of Yogyakarta. He was the traditional ruler of Yogyakarta from 1939 until his death in 1988. He is still very popular and highly honored for his role in the struggle for Indonesian independence 1945-49. The emblem looks similar to the coat-of-arms of the Keraton Ngayogyakarta Hadiningrat, his palace.

16th February 2005, 12:54 PM	#4
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Thank you Henk and Jan for your input!!!! The blade looks like it has pamor; do you think it is with nickel or a phosphorus iron? The dapur and size reminds me of a 14c Keris, any ideas? Thank you for your help! BSMStar

16th February 2005, 06:51 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	The blade has pamor, thats for sure. Tammens wrote in his books about different colors of pamor depending on the kind of metalls that were used. Tammens wrote also about research on the metal of keris and that older keris show after analysis that during the forging-proces meteorite pamor was used. Meteorite metal contains nickle in different degrees. In my opinion it is an very old blade but I don't have the courage to date it.

25th February 2005, 12:05 AM	#7
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	YES, IT IS VERY DEFINITELY AN OLD KERIS. IT IS IN VERY BAD CONDITION, BUT IT IS AN OLD KERIS, AND BEFORE IT BECAME SO BADLY DEGRADED, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A FAIRLY ATTRACTIVE KERIS. FROM WHAT I CAN SEE IN THE PHOTO, IT LOOKS AS IF IT COULD BE PAJAJARAN, BUT TO CORRECTLY READ THE INDICATORS OF TANGGUH,IT IS OFTEN NECESSARY TO HANDLE A BLADE.THE CONTRASTING PAMOR MATERIAL IN YOUR KERIS PROBABLY IS WHITE IRON. THE WORD "PUSAKA" MEANS, IN BROAD TERMS, "HEIRLOOM", BUT IT IS APPLIED COLLOQUIALLY TO KERIS, TOMBAK, AND OTHER WESI AJI TO MEAN THE ACTUAL BLADE OF THE KERIS OR TOMBAK. WHEN THE WORD IS USED IN A FORMAL SENSE , IT HAS AN IMPLICATION THAT GOES BEYOND THE IDEA WE ASSOCIATE WITH THE IDEA OF HEIRLOOM. A PUSAKA KERIS IS A KERIS WHICH BELONGS WITHIN A KINSHIP GROUP, AND DESCENDS FROM ONE GENERATION TO THE NEXT. IT IS BELIEVED TO TIE THE CURRENT HOLDER OF THE KERIS TO HIS FOREBEARS, AND ALSO TO THE OTHER MEMBERS OF HIS KINSHIP GROUP.IT CAN BE REGARDED AS A COSMIC CONNECTOR THAT JOINS PAST AND PRESENT IN ONE DIMENSION, AND ALL IN A KINSHIP GROUP IN THE PRESENT DIMENSION. A PUSAKA DOES NOT NEED TO BE AN ITEM OF WESI AJI, IT CAN BE A RICE POT, A SADDLE, OR EVEN A BUILDING. A JAVANESE RULER NEEDS TO HAVE POSSESSION OF THE ROYAL PUSAKAS TO LEGITIMISE HIS RULE. THE CLOTH BAG IS CALLED A SINGAP. IT IS THE WAY IN WHICH JAVANESE KERIS ARE NORMALLY STORED. EVEN WHEN A KERIS IS STORED IN A SPECIAL KERIS CHEST, IT WILL NORMALLY BE PLACED IN A SINGAP FIRST.

25th February 2005, 12:05 AM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Wayne, sorry i took so long to jump in on this one. I love keris with the kul buntet pamor. I own 2 myself. Something very mystical and archetypical about that swirling spiral. I boast no real skills at judging tangguh, but i will go out on a limb and suggest that this keris is genuinely old. How old i can't say but i would imagine at least 16thC. As for the keris bag, these are very traditional and i have one for most of my keris. None of mine have any embroidery on them, but they come in all different types of material. Does anyone know the traditional name for these? Pusaka means heirloom and refers to any sacred object of power that is passed down through the generations. This is about the transference of power and i believe this idea originally started on the royal level with the practice filtering down to the common man. It is an arguable point, but my feeling tends to be that once the chain is broken the keris cannot rightfully be called pusaka.