1730 Rapier or a Victorian 'Copy' .........any ideas?

The Double D · 25th November 2006, 03:41 AM

Man, these guys are brutal! I think they may be wrong it has the appearance of a very rare early Boer braai pattern rapier.

We all are going to look the fools if this turns out to be Jen-U-Wine!

Jim McDougall · 25th November 2006, 05:49 AM

Despite all the BBQ tool analysis

JUDL!! I cant resist throwing in my 2cents on this 'item'.

I am inclined to agree with Marc on the 'Victorian' period assessment, but am wondering if this might be a theatrical weapon. It seems that some of the weapons made for 'period' performances were made sturdily, although not necessarily completely accurate. While this sword is made to appear to be a cuphilt rapier, it is clearly not intended to withstand comparison to the authentic examples. It would however, present the desired effect as part of a costume in a performance.

Just speculation on my part. It seems like many of the so called wallhangers or reproductions for gentlemans parlors during Victorian times at least made viable attempt at a degree of authenticity. Many of these were easily passed off as authentic examples by antique dealers in the 20th century to unwary buyers.

Katana, even if this is a Victorian period sword, for whatever purpose, it still clearly has its own story to tell....

All the best,
Jim

katana · 25th November 2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Despite all the BBQ tool analysis

JUDL!! I cant resist throwing in my 2cents on this 'item'.

I am inclined to agree with Marc on the 'Victorian' period assessment, but am wondering if this might be a theatrical weapon. It seems that some of the weapons made for 'period' performances were made sturdily, although not necessarily completely accurate. While this sword is made to appear to be a cuphilt rapier, it is clearly not intended to withstand comparison to the authentic examples. It would however, present the desired effect as part of a costume in a performance.

Katana, even if this is a Victorian period sword, for whatever purpose, it still clearly has its own story to tell....

All the best,
Jim

Thanks Jim for your 2 cents worth......interesting and imaginative angle

Other than the possible peened pommel, the overall 'crudeness' of the sword's construction 'swayed' me into believing that this might not be 'Victoriana' and hence I took a risk.

My reasoning was that a 'wallhanger' would be more ornate...and accurate.... this sword looked more simplistic and functional. I tried to find similar examples on the web and .....found none.

I began to wonder whether this was a 'blacksmiths' sword.....apparently a number of blacksmiths produced cheaper basic swords during the 17c-18c ( and possibly before and after this period)
I cannot remember the reference (sorry Jim ), but, I was assuming this was common knowledge to collectors of this period. If I can find the reference I will post it. But several examples (pictures) shown were of crude rapiers, I assumed this type were more common because the blade would be easier to forge and would require less 'finishing'.

If it wasn't for those old action/adventure movies of my childhood...I probably wouldn't have had a desire to own a rapier......Damn Errol Flynn and his swashbuckling......

Assuming this sword is a poorly constructed wallhanger I will find a use for it.....perhaps a 'one of a kind' car aerial

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2006, 10:58 AM

Hi Katana,
You're right, that scoundrel Errol Flynn and all his swashbuckling is what got me into this obsession!!!

I would be interested to know more on the 'blacksmiths' swords. I think this would apply more to much more pedestrian weapons than rapiers though. In Victorian times of course nobody was wearing rapiers around (only sword canes gentlemen!). During the time of the popularity of the rapier, only nobility were permitted (or could afford) such weapons. Yes, even in those days there were strict weapons controls, and there were even restrictions on the length of the blade permitted (some rapiers had blades up to 42", which were I believe outlawed in England if not mistaken).
By the 18th century, the gentry began wearing the smallsword.

I have been working on finding the famed maker of reproductions during the Victorian period and at last found him !
Ernst Schmidt, who had an atelier in Munich from 1870 (until about 1930!), made outstanding examples of Renaissance and Medieval weapons and armour to satisfy the demands of neoclassic romanticists, who wished to embellish thier estates with these items. Even then these weapons were relatively expensive for authentic pieces, so the age of the 'wallhanger' began! Unfortunately, Schmidts work was so convincing, the age of the 'unscrupulous antique weapons dealer' began as well

and many hopeful buyers were duped when these items were later resold as original antiques.
A good reference on these:
"Arms and Armor from the Atelier of Ernst Schmidt, Munich" Ed. by E.Anderson Mowbray , 1967 (check with Man at Arms magazine, now run by Stuart Mowbray, and articles on this topic in the magazine as well).

Still think this is likely a theatrical piece, and it would seem done at least somewhat in the style of Schmidt. The pieces I have seen illustrations of seem to favor the upward/downward quillon terminals (which of course were never seen on cuphilts as far as I know).

Best regards,
Jim

Chris Evans · 26th November 2006, 11:12 AM

Hi Katana,

It is not very clear on the photo, but is that cup welded or brazed to the blade? Almost looks like it has been arc welded....

Cheers
Chris

katana · 26th November 2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Katana,
You're right, that scoundrel Errol Flynn and all his swashbuckling is what got me into this obsession!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would be interested to know more on the 'blacksmiths' swords. I think this would apply more to much more pedestrian weapons than rapiers though.

.
I'm wondering whether the author may have made assumptions..... perhaps swords of a seemingly functional nature but of lower quality were grouped as 'too good for a wall hanger....not good enough for a swordsmith'. I'm actually thinking that 'theatrical' swords may have entered this catagory......few would associate swords and thespians.......unless you are a Romantic........eh Jim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Still think this is likely a theatrical piece, and it would seem done at least somewhat in the style of Schmidt. The pieces I have seen illustrations of seem to favor the upward/downward quillon terminals (which of course were never seen on cuphilts as far as I know.
Best regards,
Jim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

It is not very clear on the photo, but is that cup welded or brazed to the blade? Almost looks like it has been arc welded....

Chris....simply I don't know...but I did noticed the 'join'.....with Jim's comments about the upward/downward terminals which weren't seen as cuphilts......perhaps the cup was a later addition.

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2006, 04:41 PM

[QUOTE=katana]

.
I'm wondering whether the author may have made assumptions..... perhaps swords of a seemingly functional nature but of lower quality were grouped as 'too good for a wall hanger....not good enough for a swordsmith'. I'm actually thinking that 'theatrical' swords may have entered this catagory......few would associate swords and thespians.......unless you are a Romantic........eh Jim

Spot on , Katana!!!!

Grrr! Blasted cape caught in the door again!!

Best,
Jim

VANDOO · 26th November 2006, 05:43 PM

AS JIM MENTIONED THE LEGNTH OF RAPIERS WAS RESTRICTED BY ORDER OF THE QUEEN. I CAN PICTURE A MONTY PYTHON LIKE SITUATION AT COURT, I CAN IMAGINE PEOPLE GETTING TRIPPED AND WHACKED WHEN THE GENTELMEN TURNED OR POKED IN THE EYE OR GOOSED WHEN THE GENTELMEN BOWED TO SOMEONE. PERHAPS THE QUEEN HERSELF WAS A VICTIM OF THE DEADLY GOOSE SO BANNED LONG SWORDS IN HER COURT.

IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO BEHAVE IN A PROPER DIGNIFIED ENGLISH MANNER IN SHUCH A SETTING. THUS COURT SWORDS WERE MADE AND BECAME THE RAGE.

25th November 2006, 03:41 AM	#1
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Man, these guys are brutal! I think they may be wrong it has the appearance of a very rare early Boer braai pattern rapier. We all are going to look the fools if this turns out to be Jen-U-Wine!

25th November 2006, 05:49 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,296	Despite all the BBQ tool analysis JUDL!! I cant resist throwing in my 2cents on this 'item'. I am inclined to agree with Marc on the 'Victorian' period assessment, but am wondering if this might be a theatrical weapon. It seems that some of the weapons made for 'period' performances were made sturdily, although not necessarily completely accurate. While this sword is made to appear to be a cuphilt rapier, it is clearly not intended to withstand comparison to the authentic examples. It would however, present the desired effect as part of a costume in a performance. Just speculation on my part. It seems like many of the so called wallhangers or reproductions for gentlemans parlors during Victorian times at least made viable attempt at a degree of authenticity. Many of these were easily passed off as authentic examples by antique dealers in the 20th century to unwary buyers. Katana, even if this is a Victorian period sword, for whatever purpose, it still clearly has its own story to tell.... All the best, Jim

26th November 2006, 10:58 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,296	Hi Katana, You're right, that scoundrel Errol Flynn and all his swashbuckling is what got me into this obsession!!! I would be interested to know more on the 'blacksmiths' swords. I think this would apply more to much more pedestrian weapons than rapiers though. In Victorian times of course nobody was wearing rapiers around (only sword canes gentlemen!). During the time of the popularity of the rapier, only nobility were permitted (or could afford) such weapons. Yes, even in those days there were strict weapons controls, and there were even restrictions on the length of the blade permitted (some rapiers had blades up to 42", which were I believe outlawed in England if not mistaken). By the 18th century, the gentry began wearing the smallsword. I have been working on finding the famed maker of reproductions during the Victorian period and at last found him ! Ernst Schmidt, who had an atelier in Munich from 1870 (until about 1930!), made outstanding examples of Renaissance and Medieval weapons and armour to satisfy the demands of neoclassic romanticists, who wished to embellish thier estates with these items. Even then these weapons were relatively expensive for authentic pieces, so the age of the 'wallhanger' began! Unfortunately, Schmidts work was so convincing, the age of the 'unscrupulous antique weapons dealer' began as well and many hopeful buyers were duped when these items were later resold as original antiques. A good reference on these: "Arms and Armor from the Atelier of Ernst Schmidt, Munich" Ed. by E.Anderson Mowbray , 1967 (check with Man at Arms magazine, now run by Stuart Mowbray, and articles on this topic in the magazine as well). Still think this is likely a theatrical piece, and it would seem done at least somewhat in the style of Schmidt. The pieces I have seen illustrations of seem to favor the upward/downward quillon terminals (which of course were never seen on cuphilts as far as I know). Best regards, Jim

26th November 2006, 11:12 AM	#5
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Katana, It is not very clear on the photo, but is that cup welded or brazed to the blade? Almost looks like it has been arc welded.... Cheers Chris

26th November 2006, 04:41 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,296	[QUOTE=katana] . I'm wondering whether the author may have made assumptions..... perhaps swords of a seemingly functional nature but of lower quality were grouped as 'too good for a wall hanger....not good enough for a swordsmith'. I'm actually thinking that 'theatrical' swords may have entered this catagory......few would associate swords and thespians.......unless you are a Romantic........eh Jim Spot on , Katana!!!! Grrr! Blasted cape caught in the door again!! Best, Jim

26th November 2006, 05:43 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	AS JIM MENTIONED THE LEGNTH OF RAPIERS WAS RESTRICTED BY ORDER OF THE QUEEN. I CAN PICTURE A MONTY PYTHON LIKE SITUATION AT COURT, I CAN IMAGINE PEOPLE GETTING TRIPPED AND WHACKED WHEN THE GENTELMEN TURNED OR POKED IN THE EYE OR GOOSED WHEN THE GENTELMEN BOWED TO SOMEONE. PERHAPS THE QUEEN HERSELF WAS A VICTIM OF THE DEADLY GOOSE SO BANNED LONG SWORDS IN HER COURT. IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO BEHAVE IN A PROPER DIGNIFIED ENGLISH MANNER IN SHUCH A SETTING. THUS COURT SWORDS WERE MADE AND BECAME THE RAGE.