Turkish?Georgian? Polish? Shamshir

Jeff D · 15th February 2005, 04:19 AM

Hi Jim,

I am less convinced of the Russian atributes of the quillion terminals. See Elgood's Arms and Armour of Arabia on Pg. 27 for a near identical guard and terminals. Also the Lord Athlone sword on Pg. 24 picture 2.21 has again this style although in gold.
I think there is a lot I can learn from this piece so please lets keep the discussion going.

All the best.
Jeff

erlikhan · 15th February 2005, 09:07 AM

Thanks for all contributions till now and in advance for furthers from all.
Sorry. I was sure I showed both sides, but i'm afraid i have uploaded the same side twice instead of the other one . it is corrected now. But I am almost sure the first letter on both sides is a "M". you can see the other side too. If that's Latin, can be related to Spain, but how? Or it could show any relation with Poland as a catholic country,with lands till Black Sea in past?

Marc · 15th February 2005, 10:35 AM

As usual, Jim is right on this one...

The inscription on both sides of the blade is, indeed, the old Spanish motto that can be found (with orthographic variations) in a wide variety of blades from the 16th c. onwards: "NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZÓN / NO ME ENVAINES SIN HONOR" ("Draw me not without reason / Sheath me not without honour").
Now, what the #@$%&! is it doing in such a blade, is anybody's guess...

Not the calligraphy nor the style of the koftgari decoration is Spanish, as far as I can tell. Can anyone tell us something about the decoration style? Or maybe about the letters? I think the key of the place of origin of the blade is there.
I must say that the only reason that I can now think for the presence of this inscription would be that it is there to convey both the quality connotations associated to Spanish (Toledo) blades and to add the additional "exotic" value of a piece made in foreign lands ("exotic" being a term absolutely dependant on the location of its user... as it is "Ethnographic", put to think about it...

)

Interesting find, indeed.

erlikhan · 15th February 2005, 11:12 AM

Great. So it is not Latin but Spanish. Would guess a link to north Africa, but the style is unrelated . 2-3 cms of koftgari is concealed deep under the guard. Is it not a bit odd? The swordsmith or the owner orders it to an artist, and gives a lot of money, and the artist applies his art, to stay hidden and not seen?? Not a waste ? Can the hilt be a later production to reuse a blade with broken hilt?

Jim McDougall · 15th February 2005, 11:27 PM

Thank you for confirming that Marc! I was pretty sure I could see the motto, but the gold calligraphy in so heavy it was hard to make out.
As occurs in trade blades in most of the centers, marketability is key, and that so termed 'Spanish motto' is copied in variation in Italy and France as well as Spain, however it is generally attributed to Spanish origin (noted in "The Smallsword in England" John Aylward, 1945, p.43).
I would suspect this blade to possibly have Caucasian origins, as the style of calligraphy and the large lettering that covers the entire blade panel resembles the award sabre examples I noted and many of the letter shapes have similarities to alphabets such as Mkhedruli (Georgian). While the motto is in interpretive styling of Latin, the lettering seems to reflect some of the letters of that alphabet.
I have seen many trade blades carrying mottos and names that simulate original examples of these from the countries or regions of origin, that are not accurately translatable. It is much like the 'thuluth' inscriptions on the Sudanese weapons, intended to carry stylized effect .

As for the mounts and hilt on this sabre, I am inclined to agree with Jeff, that Syria may be a likely point of furbishing where the blade and this hilt may have been put together. This location was key for mounting sabres intended for the Arabian market. It seems that the wire wrapped hilt (note the Syrian sabre in my avatar which has the wire wrap on the grip) and again the 'agrab' on scabbard throat suggest this. The pistol grip Ottoman hilt to me seems very unusual, but still well placed with appealing to Arabian chiefs and ranking tribal members seeking individuality in their personal sabres.

Again, speculation based on the comprehensive elements of the sabre, but with what seem to be plausible observations. With this being a trade blade from Caucasian regions, which often went to Syrian ateliers, this would explain the obvious mismatch in the hilt covering part of the guard.

Really is a beauty of a sabre!!!

Best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 16th February 2005, 02:51 AM

Great call Jim on the blade! I would never have guessed a Spanish motto. The style looks Eastern European / Caucasian to me, and was thinking of Romania with its Latin based language. I had to reread Elgood today, and he confirms your observation of Caucasian smiths copying trade marks and inscriptions.
Now to explain the hilt? I wonder if the sword was booty taken by a Turkish officer during the Arabian / Syrian campaigns (WWI), then mounted with a Turkish hilt. Perhaps the inscription on the grip band may help.
I will have to rewatch Lawrence of Arabia again this weekend!

All the best
Jeff

erlikhan · 16th February 2005, 07:25 PM

i am confused more. today i left the saber to an antique weapons master. He will remove rust, clean the blade and silver, small repairs to the leather professionaly. He says, everything on the sword is original, produced together, not any replacement and nothing with style of floral decoration around the letters and scabbard mountings being unfamiliar to Turkish, especially Turcoman swords (partially eastern Turkey,northern Iraq and Iran till Caspian sea). I wonder about the inscription on the grip strap more now. There is one more hand writing on the scabbard mounting too. I can issue it later when the saber returns. i guess, Spanish insc. can possibly mean a Jewish owner ordering it to workshops for himself, as most of Jews in Turkey had migrated from Spain in past and they still talk a dialect densely mixed with Spanish.Who knows?

i uploaded pics. of the shashka and American sword too ,which i won in the same lot with the saber.
http://www.pbase.com/erlik29/inbox

may i learn your comments especially about the American? Is it original army item? it says Zupco-Spain on one face, and there is a David's star writing "proved" in the star, on the other face. blade 79 cm.

regards

15th February 2005, 09:07 AM	#2
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Thanks for all contributions till now and in advance for furthers from all. Sorry. I was sure I showed both sides, but i'm afraid i have uploaded the same side twice instead of the other one . it is corrected now. But I am almost sure the first letter on both sides is a "M". you can see the other side too. If that's Latin, can be related to Spain, but how? Or it could show any relation with Poland as a catholic country,with lands till Black Sea in past? Last edited by erlikhan; 15th February 2005 at 10:10 AM.

15th February 2005, 11:27 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Thank you for confirming that Marc! I was pretty sure I could see the motto, but the gold calligraphy in so heavy it was hard to make out. As occurs in trade blades in most of the centers, marketability is key, and that so termed 'Spanish motto' is copied in variation in Italy and France as well as Spain, however it is generally attributed to Spanish origin (noted in "The Smallsword in England" John Aylward, 1945, p.43). I would suspect this blade to possibly have Caucasian origins, as the style of calligraphy and the large lettering that covers the entire blade panel resembles the award sabre examples I noted and many of the letter shapes have similarities to alphabets such as Mkhedruli (Georgian). While the motto is in interpretive styling of Latin, the lettering seems to reflect some of the letters of that alphabet. I have seen many trade blades carrying mottos and names that simulate original examples of these from the countries or regions of origin, that are not accurately translatable. It is much like the 'thuluth' inscriptions on the Sudanese weapons, intended to carry stylized effect . As for the mounts and hilt on this sabre, I am inclined to agree with Jeff, that Syria may be a likely point of furbishing where the blade and this hilt may have been put together. This location was key for mounting sabres intended for the Arabian market. It seems that the wire wrapped hilt (note the Syrian sabre in my avatar which has the wire wrap on the grip) and again the 'agrab' on scabbard throat suggest this. The pistol grip Ottoman hilt to me seems very unusual, but still well placed with appealing to Arabian chiefs and ranking tribal members seeking individuality in their personal sabres. Again, speculation based on the comprehensive elements of the sabre, but with what seem to be plausible observations. With this being a trade blade from Caucasian regions, which often went to Syrian ateliers, this would explain the obvious mismatch in the hilt covering part of the guard. Really is a beauty of a sabre!!! Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th February 2005 at 11:37 PM.

16th February 2005, 07:25 PM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	i am confused more. today i left the saber to an antique weapons master. He will remove rust, clean the blade and silver, small repairs to the leather professionaly. He says, everything on the sword is original, produced together, not any replacement and nothing with style of floral decoration around the letters and scabbard mountings being unfamiliar to Turkish, especially Turcoman swords (partially eastern Turkey,northern Iraq and Iran till Caspian sea). I wonder about the inscription on the grip strap more now. There is one more hand writing on the scabbard mounting too. I can issue it later when the saber returns. i guess, Spanish insc. can possibly mean a Jewish owner ordering it to workshops for himself, as most of Jews in Turkey had migrated from Spain in past and they still talk a dialect densely mixed with Spanish.Who knows? i uploaded pics. of the shashka and American sword too ,which i won in the same lot with the saber. http://www.pbase.com/erlik29/inbox may i learn your comments especially about the American? Is it original army item? it says Zupco-Spain on one face, and there is a David's star writing "proved" in the star, on the other face. blade 79 cm. regards Last edited by erlikhan; 16th February 2005 at 07:39 PM.

15th February 2005, 04:19 AM	#1
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim, I am less convinced of the Russian atributes of the quillion terminals. See Elgood's Arms and Armour of Arabia on Pg. 27 for a near identical guard and terminals. Also the Lord Athlone sword on Pg. 24 picture 2.21 has again this style although in gold. I think there is a lot I can learn from this piece so please lets keep the discussion going. All the best. Jeff

15th February 2005, 10:35 AM	#3
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	As usual, Jim is right on this one... The inscription on both sides of the blade is, indeed, the old Spanish motto that can be found (with orthographic variations) in a wide variety of blades from the 16th c. onwards: "NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZÓN / NO ME ENVAINES SIN HONOR" ("Draw me not without reason / Sheath me not without honour"). Now, what the #@$%&! is it doing in such a blade, is anybody's guess... Not the calligraphy nor the style of the koftgari decoration is Spanish, as far as I can tell. Can anyone tell us something about the decoration style? Or maybe about the letters? I think the key of the place of origin of the blade is there. I must say that the only reason that I can now think for the presence of this inscription would be that it is there to convey both the quality connotations associated to Spanish (Toledo) blades and to add the additional "exotic" value of a piece made in foreign lands ("exotic" being a term absolutely dependant on the location of its user... as it is "Ethnographic", put to think about it... ) Interesting find, indeed.

15th February 2005, 11:12 AM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Great. So it is not Latin but Spanish. Would guess a link to north Africa, but the style is unrelated . 2-3 cms of koftgari is concealed deep under the guard. Is it not a bit odd? The swordsmith or the owner orders it to an artist, and gives a lot of money, and the artist applies his art, to stay hidden and not seen?? Not a waste ? Can the hilt be a later production to reuse a blade with broken hilt?

16th February 2005, 02:51 AM	#6
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Great call Jim on the blade! I would never have guessed a Spanish motto. The style looks Eastern European / Caucasian to me, and was thinking of Romania with its Latin based language. I had to reread Elgood today, and he confirms your observation of Caucasian smiths copying trade marks and inscriptions. Now to explain the hilt? I wonder if the sword was booty taken by a Turkish officer during the Arabian / Syrian campaigns (WWI), then mounted with a Turkish hilt. Perhaps the inscription on the grip band may help. I will have to rewatch Lawrence of Arabia again this weekend! All the best Jeff