Review of "Arms and Armour from Iran" by M. Khorasani

[Rivkin]

Is it possible that my opinion is biased ? Ofcoarse. It says so right in the first paragraph of my review, that is why I ask people to "treat this review with a grain of salt".

Concerning Dr. Feuerbach (btw, since we started this, why Mr. Rivkin, but Dr. Feuerbach ?), I am sorry if my statement that her beliefs are her beliefs was offensive. I really do not know how to refrase it, but yes, as I stated many times, there are a lot of different opinions on the subject, and those that are not mine could be wrong or could be right.

I actually objected (and do object) to only a single phrase in her review (which btw does not relate to the book), concerning preservation of the knowledge of antiquity. First of all I do not believe in significant importance of a lot of this knowledge of antiquity for post-renessaince science (were epicycles really helpful ?). Yes, on the other hand one should note the excessive quoting/translation of Aristotel and others by Muslim Philosophers, but it is a very complex question, how much was preserved and how much was destroyed and by whom, and yes I find the recent controversy over "preservation" to be largely politically driven. If Dr. Feuerbach wants to waste her valuable time discussing this with me, I would be honored to, but I am obviously not an expert on this, so I do not know if it is a good idea to argue with me.

Concerning the rest of her review I think I agree with 80%, may be even 90% of what she says. Only she says it in a very polite way, and I say it in a rude way. Well, she is a fine lady and I am a vicious savage.

Concerning your peace offer. Thank you very much. May I ask how do you see this peace ? We stop criticizing Manoucher and Ruel, Ruel downgrades his charge of plagiarism against Tirri to misdimeanor ? I will be honest I have no problem if Manoucher for example comes after stuff I published on this forum. A lot of it (10-20%) is different than what I think today, and a some of it is simply crap.

[Adrian Ko]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Concerning Dr. Feuerbach (btw, since we started this, why Mr. Rivkin, but Dr. Feuerbach ?), I am sorry if my statement that her beliefs are her beliefs was offensive. I really do not know how to refrase it, but yes, as I stated many times, there are a lot of different opinions on the subject, and those that are not mine could be wrong or could be right.

If I am missing your credentials, it is unintentional as I do not know you. Nor is there any mention of a doctorate in your SFI profile. I only know you by your words. So let me proceed by letting the titles go.

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Concerning your peace offer. Thank you very much. May I ask how do you see this peace ? We stop criticizing Manoucher and Ruel, Ruel downgrades his charge of plagiarism against Tirri to misdimeanor ? I will be honest I have no problem if Manoucher for example comes after stuff I published on this forum. A lot of it (10-20%) is different than what I think today, and a some of it is simply crap.

I'm sorry, I missed the meeting where I'm supposed to silence someone for you.

You know, it's this kind of mentality that now I see creates this "us vs. them" and "EAAF vs. SFI". First, you seem to be of the misunderstanding that if you stop criticizing Manoucher and Ruel that I have to somehow silence Ruel. First off, I neither am for or against Ruel as an individual. But that individual has a right to express his viewpoints so long as he can back them up. He has to date provided a reasonable arguementative defense for his beliefs. Whether people accept them or not is up to them. Since I removed the concern of Rivkin from the "Dressed to Kill" thread, things have been civil only up until the point on EAAF member decided to say enough on SFI merit my concerns of inter-forum issues.

(And for the record, I've firmly asked Ruel not bring the issue regarding Tirri up on SFI. He has a valid concern that the level of scrutiny of Tirri's work does not hold a candle to Manoucher's work. Ruel alleges there is almost unquestioned acceptance of Tirri's work even though there are clear echoes of the same errors in Stone's book. He belives certain individuals on EAAF have not answered those concerns publicly while relentlessly assailing Manoucher's book, creating an impression for Ruel there are double standards.)

Let it be noted that for whatever the reason, Ruel was banned from this website. Simply because Ruel now posts on a website that hasn't permanently banned him does not mean that Ruel is "ours" any more than Ruel was "yours." For all the ruckus Ruel has caused me, I don't want him to be "mine". If he posts on NetSword, does that mean he's NetSwords?

Kirill, if you have found it within yourself to say that some of Manoucher's stuff is "simply crap" then it is evident you have a personal vendetta. Is that kind of phrasing necessary? You tell me.

Look, I really don't care to "debate" you because I don't have issue with you on this subject matter. My concern is your vendetta, and that vendetta is politiciziing people against my site because you guys created a monster in Ruel, and now SFI is the enemy because we won't silence a monster you created?

Will you consider making friends with these people instead?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Adrian Ko

If I am missing your credentials, it is unintentional as I do not know you. Nor is there any mention of a doctorate in your SFI profile. I only know you by your words. So let me proceed by letting the titles go.



I'm sorry, I missed the meeting where I'm supposed to silence someone for you.

You know, it's this kind of mentality that now I see creates this "us vs. them" and "EAAF vs. SFI". First, you seem to be of the misunderstanding that if you stop criticizing Manoucher and Ruel that I have to somehow silence Ruel. First off, I neither am for or against Ruel as an individual. But that individual has a right to express his viewpoints so long as he can back them up. He has to date provided a reasonable arguementative defense for his beliefs. Whether people accept them or not is up to them. Since I removed the concern of Rivkin from the "Dressed to Kill" thread, things have been civil only up until the point on EAAF member decided to say enough on SFI merit my concerns of inter-forum issues.

(And for the record, I've firmly asked Ruel not bring the issue regarding Tirri up on SFI. He has a valid concern that the level of scrutiny of Tirri's work does not hold a candle to Manoucher's work. Ruel alleges there is almost unquestioned acceptance of Tirri's work even though there are clear echoes of the same errors in Stone's book. He belives certain individuals on EAAF have not answered those concerns publicly while relentlessly assailing Manoucher's book, creating an impression for Ruel there are double standards.)

Let it be noted that for whatever the reason, Ruel was banned from this website. Simply because Ruel now posts on a website that hasn't permanently banned him does not mean that Ruel is "ours" any more than Ruel was "yours." For all the ruckus Ruel has caused me, I don't want him to be "mine". If he posts on NetSword, does that mean he's NetSwords?

Kirill, if you have found it within yourself to say that some of Manoucher's stuff is "simply crap" then it is evident you have a personal vendetta. Is that kind of phrasing necessary? You tell me.

Look, I really don't care to "debate" you because I don't have issue with you on this subject matter. My concern is your vendetta, and that vendetta is politiciziing people against my site because you guys created a monster in Ruel, and now SFI is the enemy because we won't silence a monster you created?

Will you consider making friends with these people instead?

Nice to see you here, Adrian.

I think Kirill's reference to "crap" was regarding prior posts of his own, not anything Manouchehr has written. Take a look at it again.





To everyone: this thread has nothing to do with Ruel. Don't bring him up again.

I urge everyone to heed Ian and Rick's warnings. We do not want to lock yet another thread on this topic. We will, however, be handing out bans to those unable to discuss this matter objectively.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I urge everyone to heed Ian and Rick's warnings. We do not want to lock yet another thread on this topic. We will, however, be handing out bans to those unable to discuss this matter objectively.

And by "this matter," we mean (a) the book, and (b) the merits/demerits of the review topping this thread. It is possible to discuss the book AND the review without having to put it in terms of the personalities involved. Discussion of, for example, personal history, motivation, or any real or perceived "conflict," is off-topic.

Clear enough for everyone?

[Adrian Ko]

As a site operator, I see the value of moderation and appreciate the difficulty it is to keep threads on topic. I apologize for any inconvenience and I'll submit to the requests of the moderators. I thank everyone for allowing me to share. This is my final post on this thread.

Have a great rest of the week! (And beyond that, of course!)

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Mark

And by "this matter," we mean (a) the book, and (b) the merits/demerits of the review topping this thread. It is possible to discuss the book AND the review without having to put it in terms of the personalities involved. Discussion of, for example, personal history, motivation, or any real or perceived "conflict," is off-topic.

Clear enough for everyone?

Hi Mark, Andrew and Ian.

Can I get a clarification? Since Manoucher makes many "personal observations" and conclusions in his book, his credentials as an expert may occasionally come up. How would the moderators like this to be handled?

Thanks
Jeff

[Ian]

Jeff:

We need to avoid commenting on the author, his credentials or his position on another forum, and focus on the substance of the book. The book is the enduring contribution to our field of interest and it needs to be evaluated on its merits. Where there are statements of personal opinion, these should be treated as such, but they should not be used to attack the author or his credibility.

This is a mammoth piece of work and deserves careful review, as Dr Rivkin has attempted.

Ian.

[Jeff D]

Thanks Ian,

I agree with your sentiments, but the lawyers here would never accept the testimony of a expert witness without first establishing his credentials. The situation I would personally like to avoid is the disagreement with one of Manoucher's personal observations or conclusions, with the attempt to support this position sounding like a personal attack, when it was not intended to be. Solid credentials as you know alleviates this (to some degree). Since there is more than a few of these potential bombs in the book I would like to see a guide line to defuse this situation.

Thank you and good luck
Jeff

[Rivkin]

Dear All,

1. "Crap" was a characteristic of some of my earlier posts.
2. I apologize if I misunderstood your words, Mr. Ko. It is indeed a cultural thing.

3. What I mean with all this stuff about peace, is that even if we would have a "peace agreement", I would not have written something drastically different, but who knows, I have tried to be more or less objective, but probably failed, I can not be a judge of that. I have nothing against any posts on SFI, by any authors, including the one you call "monster" on SFI. I welcome them and have no problem with their existance, despite profoundly disagreeing with their nature. And yes, if the triple-cursed mekhitarist sword will come up again for the evaluation, I will still refer you to the same book.

4. I apologize for mentioning my title here, and I think it is irrelevant who we are and what we do, this was done only to say that if we go formal we need to go formal. Please adress me by my nick here - Rivkin, or by my first name - Kirill.

5. Finally I want to mention that we discuss too much my relationship with Manoucher. I have clearly stated it on top of my review, I think quite accurately.

6. Now concerning the books - there is a book by Allen and Gilmore, "Persian Steel, Tannavoli Collection". I did not like Lebedinsky's book on Caucasian weapons, but have not read the one on "Oriental" weapons. There is a number of other books, but I do believe the present book is a very good starting point, and a very good basic book on the subject.

7. I again would like to express my apologies for some of my previous words. I honestly believed that the book will be filled with "Arrani" problems, criticism of Western Myths, declarations of Arian unity, and many other things that have been stated many times in the past, often in the connection with this book. I would like to reiterate my statement, that I do not think any of those is a big concern here. There are some "territorial" (you have seen one example - Circassia) and other issues here and there (too much heroic folklore, too many times questionably names people "persian or "iranian") but in general it is a good book.

8. Finally, I think we use the word "academic" too much. Let me tell you of my experience. I am far from being honored with a publication of the size of Manoucher's work, but some time ago I did submit a 10 times smaller manuscript to some colleagues for review. Two politely replied with commentaries about font, pictures and congratulated me on my accomplishment (translation - they have not read the damn thing). The third one did read it.
The phrase written on the cover was "SHAME !!! Did not reference:". Below it was a list of articles that I failed to reference. On every page he has found something that was uncertain, or misinterpreted, or misrepresented.
Now, I swallowed my pride and implemented corrections.
The moral to it is simple - you want to be an academian, read periodic journals and reference them, extensively. Otherwise people will look at your reference list and will think that you are unaware of the current work or you simply copied lots of textbooks. Here I believe a lot of articles and books should have been referenced because they directly relate to the field, and their context should have been discussed here.
And above all - send your work for review to people who are not your super-friends, but those who will tear your work apart, for you learn from their comments, not from yours friends' praise.