Markings or Decorations on Mexican Swords

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Matt,
You're doing some great research on this!!! I really like the thorough approach you are using !
Can you possibly show the entire sword, I've forgotten what hilt it is mounted in.
Which unit was your grandfather in.
Nice work locating the bladesmith in Oaxaca. I'll work on finding way to contact him if possible.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Hello again Matt,
I have been working more on this and going through files and more books.
In reviewing the book "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821" I looked at the military blades much like yours. While these are typically noted as 'Spanish military blades' I notice that they most often have triple fullers in the upper third of the blade, as well as flattened hexagonal cross section. In checking "Armamento Portatil Espanol 1764-1939" (B. Barcelo Rubi, Madrid, 1976, p.26) I notice that the Spanish military blades of regulation pattern, in this case M1768, which are supposed to be the type used in the New Spain swords, do not have the triple fullers.
This would suggest of course, that your blade was not made in Spain.

In studying these Spanish colonial weapons of the latter 18th thru early 19th century, there has been some suggestion that many of the 'Spanish' blades found on the early espada anchas as well as the sabres carried by militia officers may have been Solingen made. It is interesting that the triple fullers also appear on early trade broadsword blades from Germany and are often found on kaskaras and Omani kattaras.
On the hexagonal cross section 'Spanish' blades, it is most common to find the inscription "No Me Saques sin Razon" on one side and on the other "No me Embaines sin honor'. It seems that virtually all of these blades carry this inscription, though there are variations.

In reviewing coin books and material on the Mexican eagle symbol, I can find absolutely no evidence of an eagle in the posture seen on your blade, with fully outstretched wings. It was very good research on your part to find the Disturnell map showing a comparitive example to the engraving on your blade.
Apparantly there is a great deal of complexity in the content of that map, which was placed with the Treaty of Guadelupe-Hidalgo in 1848, at the end of the Mexican-American War of 1846-48. Interestingly, John Disturnell of New York copied the map from the so called Rosa map (Paris, 1837) who in turn had copied it from Henry S. Tanner map (Philadephia,1826).
It would seem with all of this, that the eagle style shown on the map may very much reflect American style.
Earlier it seems you mentioned PDL , which is actually P.D.Luneschloss, a Solingen maker who supplied blades at about the time of the civil war, and before.

With a great deal of speculation, I would suggest that possibly the German maker, exporting blades sometime c.1850's may have decorated the blade for a Mexican officer on special order, most likely in some diplomatic venture. It seems plausible that he might have been aware of or used the eagle on the Paris map as a model for a Mexican eagle?
Since it is well known that the Confederacy had considerable contact with Mexico, it would seem quite plausible that the blade, or entire sword, may have come into thier possession. As I have previously described, Custer captured a sword from a Confederate officer during the Civil War which was mounted with a blade carrying the familiar 'Spanish motto' that I have indicated often found on the triple fuller blades.

If the blade does have the PDL, then this scenario may be the answer, and would pretty much eliminate Oaxaca.

I very much enjoy this kind of research, and really appreciate your reciprocation and response in exchanging ideas!!

Please post some photos of the entire sword, and confirm the PDL marking OK.

All the best
Jim

[Matt Branch]

Thanks Jim!
Here are a couple full views.
On reading more about the Espada Ancha ( my sword has almost the exact dimensions as one in Spanish Colonial Weapons...sword 3 plate 131) I have found that a lot of spanish and mexican blades were Iron, I have assumed that my blade is steel. How do you tell?
The 3rd photo is listed as a dish hilt hanger, it is 1/4 inch longer than mine and is listed as having probably been cut down???
I am trying to get a better photo of the P D L...more on that later.
Thanks Again
Matt

[Matt Branch]

Here are some photos of the PDL and the recasso on my sword.
Re the PDL, I have not found a Luneschloss blade that had the initals ingraved in the blade in cursive, so I've been thinking that they are spurious or the initals of the sword owner. Perhaps you are right about Germany, Juan J. Perez has said he thinks it is a soligen blade but I have not found one that is close or has the tri fullers like mine does so I was looking at Oaxaca as a possability.
In the photos you can see the ricasso on my blade is the same size and shape as the dish hilt hanger, and the fullers are in about the same place, I can't tell how long the fullers are on the hanger so I don't know if that would match.
As I said earlier, I don't know how to tell what the blade is made out of so any info on that would be great.
I saw a short article on Espada Anchas where the autor said that a lot of them were rehilted with 3 bar iron hilts from England around the Mexican -American war, and mine does look lihe cast iron.
My ggg grandfather was in company I 10th Michigan Infantry. He enlisted as a sergent and was made company wagon master Nov. 20 1861 and was promoted to Lieutenant after the afore mentioned skirmish.
Thanks for all you're work Jim and all the info!
Is there a way to tell if my blade has been cut down?
Is there a way to confirm the PDL?
Best Regards
Matt

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Matt,
I'm glad you have spoken to Juan Perez as he is one of the most knowledgable people I know on Spanish swords, so I am glad that he agrees this blade is, like many of the other triple fuller examples, from Solingen.
As Chamberlain notes in his book, many of these blades were hilted in Mexico with three bar iron hilts in the 1820's and 30's. English hilts seem quite likely, although the three bar hilt became popular with a number of countries during those times. Yours does seem English.

Interesting on the PDL, which certainly seems to represent Luneschloss, who furnished edged weapons for Britain, France, Belgium, Holland and the U.S.- "where Luneschloss supplied both sides during the US Civil War of 1861-65"
("Sword and Bayonet Makers of Imperial Germany 1871-1918", John Walter, 1975, p111-114). This reference notes further, "...quantities of etched and engraved weapons were also marketed alongside cutlery and tableware".

While this reference clearly is assigned in scope to the period after the Civil War, the existing history of the makers prior to that time is discussed briefly.
It should be noted that Luneschloss worked closely with London dealers, much as many German makers had for many years, and that England was of course quite active in supplying Confederate forces. Although the obviously Mexican motif seems misplaced on a sword found in Confederate hands, it does seem as I mentioned, not that surprising given the complexities of supply networking during those wartime years. While most of the Luneschloss blades I have seen were stamped, especially the U.S. examples. On an interesting side note, when the U.S.pattern 1840 cavalry sabres were introduced, the earliest examples were actually German made! until Ames took the contract.

I still am inclined to think that the blade may have been decorated in Germany, it would appear by Luneschloss, and the cursive script may have been because it might have been intended in some diplomatic sense? It is really difficult to say, yet we know where it ended up

Do your records show what location in Tennessee the action took place?
I lived in Nashville for nearly ten years and the history was fascinating, though I didnt really get into it as much as I should have then. It seems all the focus was on the Battle of Stones River (Murfreesboro).

Your blade seems to me full profile, so dont think it is cut down, and it is of course forged steel. The hilts were iron or brass.

All the best,
Jim

[Matt Branch]

Thanks Jim for all the input.
I have been thinking, about this blade, when I started you could not see a pattern or mark on my blade.
I wanted to find my family history and connect with my roots.
As I began to conserve the blade and the decorations began to appear, the blade took on a life of it's own.
The battle marks on the blade have begun to speak to me.
Clearly this blade has seen battle and has taken life or limb. This has weighed on me at times as I have spent many hours with oil and flitz to reveal the blade under years of rust.
I got the sword in 1974 from my grandfather, and took it to my dad and it sat in a gun cabinet till last year when I rescued it. And started this journey.
My search is about history and my family and has become about the blade.
From my records , a member of my family has served during every war from the civil war to Desert storm. I served during Viet Nam.
When I look at this blade I wonder, where it has been and what it has seen.
That is why I need to know who made it where has it been and what has it seen, and I will not give up till I know.
I have approached this trying to match the size, type and measurments of my blade thinking that it is the best way to ID my blade.
I hope to find the source, solingen, oxacac or toledo and trace how it came to my family.
Others have been critical of my posts and my efforts, but they don't understand.
This isn't a piece of metal, this is my history, my life, my childrens legacy
Regards
Matt

[Matt Branch]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Matt,
I'm glad you have spoken to Juan Perez as he is one of the most knowledgable people I know on Spanish swords, so I am glad that he agrees this blade is, like many of the other triple fuller examples, from Solingen.
As Chamberlain notes in his book, many of these blades were hilted in Mexico with three bar iron hilts in the 1820's and 30's. English hilts seem quite likely, although the three bar hilt became popular with a number of countries during those times. Yours does seem English.

Interesting on the PDL, which certainly seems to represent Luneschloss, who furnished edged weapons for Britain, France, Belgium, Holland and the U.S.- "where Luneschloss supplied both sides during the US Civil War of 1861-65"
("Sword and Bayonet Makers of Imperial Germany 1871-1918", John Walter, 1975, p111-114). This reference notes further, "...quantities of etched and engraved weapons were also marketed alongside cutlery and tableware".

While this reference clearly is assigned in scope to the period after the Civil War, the existing history of the makers prior to that time is discussed briefly.
It should be noted that Luneschloss worked closely with London dealers, much as many German makers had for many years, and that England was of course quite active in supplying Confederate forces. Although the obviously Mexican motif seems misplaced on a sword found in Confederate hands, it does seem as I mentioned, not that surprising given the complexities of supply networking during those wartime years. While most of the Luneschloss blades I have seen were stamped, especially the U.S. examples. On an interesting side note, when the U.S.pattern 1840 cavalry sabres were introduced, the earliest examples were actually German made! until Ames took the contract.

I still am inclined to think that the blade may have been decorated in Germany, it would appear by Luneschloss, and the cursive script may have been because it might have been intended in some diplomatic sense? It is really difficult to say, yet we know where it ended up

Do your records show what location in Tennessee the action took place?
I lived in Nashville for nearly ten years and the history was fascinating, though I didnt really get into it as much as I should have then. It seems all the focus was on the Battle of Stones River (Murfreesboro).

Your blade seems to me full profile, so dont think it is cut down, and it is of course forged steel. The hilts were iron or brass.

All the best,
Jim

The report I have lists Mill Creek as the locationof the skirmish. I don't know if that helps.
Thanks
Best regards
Matt

[Matt Branch]

Hi Jim.
There is an account in the report of a supply train on the way to Murfreesboro being attccked by a force of about 3000 rebels and that they were turned away after having lost 10 killed and 15 wounded and taken prisoner.
That was co's A & D and some other Infantry.
The train my gg grandfather was on and attacked was the Mill Creek, Nashville and Chattanooga and was on it's way to Lavergne.
In the report it states that the Michigan marched 1700 miles in 22 months and that many of the men went barefoot for extended periods.
War is hell.

Do you know of a way to find any Solingen Sword makers that were in business during that era? I have done a lot of searches on Google and Yahoo and have not been succesfull finding any yet.

Thanks again for all you're help!

Regards
Matt