Indian Katar

[fernando]

This might be nonsense but, wthin the relative narrowness of the grip between the sword ( tulwar ... ) and the katar, i would adventure that katars may have even got narrower handles than swords as, in the sword you have to be able to swing your wrist, whereas in katars both your hand and forearm are completely aligned inside the long bars ... even sometimes tyed with bandages. So you wouldn't need a "tolerance factor".
I am posting pictures of a ( poor condition ) katar which, in my unitiated eyes, is similar to the one shown by Aurangzeb in this thread opening. The blade is 10 inches long but, in the contrary, the grip section in this one hardly measures a critical 6 cms. I have being reluctant to abandon the boy's katar version as, the shop owner whom i bought it from, is a relatively known weapons historian-writer and has an imense collection. Whereas he didn't ponder all this time on the ( some ) Indian peoples actually slim hands, and just decided to call this piece an adolescent specimen for comercial purposes, is something i find bitter to digest. But as we say over here, even the best cloth gets stained.
Kind regards
fernando

[Tim Simmons]

I have to agree with Fernando. I just cannot believe that a large amout of adult Indian WARRIORS with training and so on were only the size of the average modern western teenager. Some weapons may have been used with a glove but that still leaves a huge question about all the others.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I have to agree with Fernando. I just cannot believe that a large amout of adult Indian WARRIORS with training and so on were only the size of the average modern western teenager. Some weapons may have been used with a glove but that still leaves a huge question about all the others.

Tim

I have been in many old homes dating back to the 1750s and the door frames in these homes are quite low 5'7-8 inches high maybe even lower. You just have to face it most people who lived 250 years ago were short. Here in the states we see a large number of immigrants coming out of Equador and Peru my son who is 5ft 5 inches towers over most of the adult men and the women are tiny 4ft 8 inches tall. During WWII many Americans seemed huge next to the Japanese. You also can see this trait in many of the Ghurkas from Nepal old kukris have small hilts for small handed people. As the old saying goes if the shoe fits wear it or if the katar fits you must acquit Click on this link! I also found this in my searches.

Height and weight of early 20th century Filipino men


J. E. Murray A1

A1 Department of Economics, University of Toledo, Ohio, USA


Abstract:

Background: Recent anthropometric studies of Filipinos have concentrated on women and children. While present-day studies of Filipino men are few, scattered sources of historical height and weight samples exist and can be studied to estimate a rough baseline for comparison, as well as to study trends in the past. Aim: This paper estimates heights and weights of men in the Philippines about a century ago. Height-by-age profiles and comparisons to contemporary populations in south-east Asia as well as present day Filipinos provide context. Subjects and methods: One sample consisted of 843 prisoners from throughout the islands, who were measured by an American anthropologist in Manila. A previously overlooked published source included measurements of 1016 seamen, police and prison guards, and civil servants in Manila. A contemporary source also measured 100 relatively remote Igorrote in Luzon. Results: Average heights fell in a relatively narrow range of 1.60-1.62 m, except for police who were subject to a minimum height requirement. Body mass index (BMI) fell in a broader range of 18.24-21.26. Some regional variation was also evident in the prisoner sample. Height-by-age profiles suggested some improvement in net nutritional conditions over the century. Conclusions: Heights of turn of the century Filipino men were not very different from men elsewhere in south-east Asia, nor from present-day Filipino men. To understand trends in heights over the longer term more samples of men in the present-day Philippines would be desirable.


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http://www.webmd.com/content/article...531713CA348%7D

So why is it so hard to believe that 18th century Indian warriors would be any bigger than other peoples from Europe and South east Asia?



Lew

[Tim Simmons]

It would be interesting to compere the hilts with medieval and later hilts of some of the shorter European people.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Tim,

You are wrong, and living in England where you have so many people from India/Pakistan living, I don’t understand that you can’t see, that the arguments from Brian, Lew and myself are right – it is beyond me, but I don’t think your arguments hold water – sorry. There are however, a lot of other questions to e discussed about the hilts, and I hope we can discus them at another time.

Lew, could you show the dot marking, and tell from where you have the translation – please.

Fernando, please realise that the way of fighting in Europe and in India was very different, and this makes the different hilts interesting – have a look at post #8.

[Lew]

[QUOTE=Jens Nordlunde]



Lew, could you show the dot marking, and tell from where you have the translation – please.

Jens

Dot markings on what the katar?

Lew

[B.I]

it seems everyone is getting at tim....so i may as well join in
if you pop down to southall, after spending 2 hours trying to park, you'll easily notice mine and jens' point. i am not saying we are right, but you will see whare we are coming from.
i have a group of cousins from my mothers side - 3 guys, aged between 30 and 40, all of whome can hold my swords that i could hardly fit 4 fingers into. if you go to india, this becomes really apparant as the size difference is very noticeable. the mughal left their mark in more than the architecture, but there are still enough pure hindus to keep me happy in my theory.

a side note, the 16thC 'madrasi' sword that elgood illustrates all have even smaller hilts than a standard tulwar. these are absolutely tiny and date from the 16thC (and before). all of the examples i have seen, and i have seen enough to make a comparison, are of the same small size.
so, i believe both theories work. jens and i believe the hindu 'throwbacks' still exist in small stature, and their ancestors were probably even smaller if you compare these early swords of pure hindu form ot the still-small tulwars of the 19thC.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

It would be interesting to compere the hilts with medieval and later hilts of some of the shorter European people.

Hi Tim,
In page 191 of HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES ( MEN, SWORDS AND BALLS ), the author Rainer Daehnhardt, after weaving some interesting considerations on the Tulwar origins and use, writes: The Portuguese would not use this weapon, firstly because they trusted more their own, and also because the majority of Tulwars grips was so small that rare were the Portuguese hands that could fit into them ( Pictures 51, 52 and 100 ).
This is the guy who owns the shop i bought the pictured katar from.
... and Portuguese were not that big.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I have to agree with Fernando. I just cannot believe that a large amout of adult Indian WARRIORS with training and so on were only the size of the average modern western teenager. Some weapons may have been used with a glove but that still leaves a huge question about all the others.

Hi Tim.

Frederick Wilkinson Quotes P. Bramley who was the Deputy Inspector-General of the North Western Provinces and Oudh Police in the late 19th century, on Pg 190 of
Swords and Hilt Weapons 'Mr Bramley also comments on the hilt of the talwar, pointing out that for the average European hand the grip feels cramped and uncomfortable since the average Indian hand is smaller than that of a European'

On a side note, most of the real skeletons found in anatomy labs came from India (I think this was stopped in the 1970's), because of this there have been many upset first year medical students thinking that "their bones" were from children which was not the case.
Europeans on the other hand, were similar size to us now during the middle ages, we only began shrinking when the over crowded and poor nutritional conditions occured during the industrial revolution.

hope this is useful.
Jeff