LOHAR - Solving The Mistery

Radu Transylvanicus · 1st November 2006, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Google images. Sugar hammers. The first three examples, priceless

I would think sugar may still be sold in one big lump to the few remaining nomad/semi nomads today.

I am sure its a completely obsolete tool by now but thats exactly why the latest examples were leaning more towards the wall decoration, like the Lohar. Lets not get carried in this direction with the ice picks: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Co..._12p.widec.jpg

Tim Simmons · 1st November 2006, 08:04 PM

I do not think there was much call for ice in your martini

. Certainly sugar for tea, I think tea is the thing there rather than coffee. With all these shared social pass times some very decorative paraphernalia develops.

Radu Transylvanicus · 1st November 2006, 08:56 PM

I stumbled across two images of Aghani people harvesting ice at the glacier's lip, Vandoo, my friend, this one is for you

http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archi...ceCutters1.jpg
http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archi...ceCutters2.jpg

Bill M · 1st November 2006, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

I stumbled across two images of Aghani people harvesting ice at the glacier's lip, Vandoo, my friend, this one is for you

http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archi...ceCutters1.jpg
http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archi...ceCutters2.jpg

Don't see any Lohars in your links.

Still seems like someone is joking here. Do you have any pictures, drawings, engravings, etc., of Lohars being used as ice picks?

Enquiring minds want to know!

VANDOO · 2nd November 2006, 04:10 AM

THERE ARE NO LOHAR IN EVIDENCE IN THE PICTURES BUT THE ICE BEING HARVESTED LOOKS MORE LIKE COMPACTED SNOW. A TRADITIONAL ICE PICK RELIES ON THE FRACTURE PLANES IN ICE AND IN THE HANDS OF SOMEONE USED TO USING THEM CAN HANDLE ANY SIZE OF ICE OUTCROPING OR LAKE SURFACE ICE(THE ICE WOULD ALREADY HAVE TO BE REMOVED FROM A LAKE IF IT IS VERY THICK AS A ICE PICK CAN'T DO THAT JOB).

THE LOHAR COULD WORK BETTER FOR CUTTING AND SHAPEING COMPRESSED SNOW AS SNOW WILL NOT FRACTURE SO IN THAT CASE IT WOULD WORK BETTER THAN AN ICE PICK. LOHAR WOULD NOT BE GOOD FOR ICE OR SNOW CLIMBING THOUGH AS THEY HAVE A SHARP EDGE ON THE BOTTOM WHICH WOULD SERVE AS A POOR CLIMBING ANCHOR. THE EDGE WOULD AID IN CUTTING THRU SNOW BY IMBEDDING THE BLADE FULLY AND THEN PULLING IT BACK PERHAPS GOING BACKWARDS TO MAKE A LONG SLICE IF THE SNOW WAS NOT TOO HARD. PERHAPS IT IS ONLY A TOOL OR PERHAPS NOT BUT IT COULD BE USED EFFECTIVELY AS A WEAPON ALSO.

I WONDER WHAT THE LARGE ICE CUTTER IN THE PICTURE LOOKS LIKE UP CLOSE. THEY MAY HARVEST THE SNOW/ICE AS A WATER SOURCE OR TRANSPORT IT TO TOWN TO SELL. AS WITH MOST REASERCH IT ALWAYS SEEMS TO BRING UP MORE QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE JUST GETTING STARTED

MY USE OF ALL CAPITALS DOSEN'T DENOTE EXCITEMENT OR PASSION JUST POOR EYESIGHT ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO COMPUTER SCREENS

katana · 25th November 2006, 03:12 PM

Not quite a Lohar......but an interesting similar weapon from Africa. Seems 'business like' so I don't think it is ceremonial.....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=011

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2006, 12:18 AM

I've been watching this thread with great interest, and Radu, as always comes up with some fascinating perspective on these intriguing weapons and thier modern use. I personally have little doubt that they were indeed once very lethal weapons, probably used in the raiding of camps that it seems was favored as nocturnal activity in Afghan regions. Thier relatively diminutive size seems to run along with so many daggers and weapons that were meant for easy concealment ( obviously the converse applies to the huge khyber knives etc.).

As for their modern use as ice picks.....not surprising at all to see a weapon with strong traditional presence finding a new , more practical use aside from its former one. It seems I've seen so many daggers and knives used as letter openers, remaining certain that these weapons were not originally designed to open letters!

I could go on, with how many bayonets have ended up being garden tools....including (gasp!!) one incredible Caucasian shashka that I was once discussing with its owner by phone. Apparantly his son was in the backyard whacking weeds with it just as I told him how much it was worth !!!

Best regards,
Jim

katana · 1st November 2006, 09:06 PM

.....I think that Leon Trotsky would vouch for the lethal qualities of an everyday ice pick.... so the injury potential of the Lohar IMHO would be greater?

Radu Transylvanicus · 1st November 2006, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

.....I think that Leon Trotsky would vouch for the lethal qualities of an everyday ice pick.... so the injury potential of the Lohar IMHO would be greater?

Ouch Katana, very ouch.

Did you knew they actually recently found Ramon Mercader's ice-pick? I am a fanatic mountaineer myself I have three of my own (no connections OK

) one for mountaineering and two for vertical ice climbing... They are incredible toys, in skilled hands (no connections again

). A Lohar's strike would never compare in the wildest dreams with the strike of a ice axe. My big boy, a Charlet Moser for mountaineering would go at least ten inch deep trough the metal hood of a F-150 truck with a swing from my hands (no connections again

). More powerful than a medieval bec-de-corbin (war hammer), even though smaller than most and lighter of course. The other two lil' boys (bulldogs as I call them) almost left me thumbless when I struck "dinner plate" ice on a vertical route on a ice route three winters ago. Not a pretty sight, I still bear the mark.

1st November 2006, 08:04 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I do not think there was much call for ice in your martini . Certainly sugar for tea, I think tea is the thing there rather than coffee. With all these shared social pass times some very decorative paraphernalia develops.

1st November 2006, 08:56 PM	#3
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	I stumbled across two images of Aghani people harvesting ice at the glacier's lip, Vandoo, my friend, this one is for you http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archi...ceCutters1.jpg http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archi...ceCutters2.jpg

2nd November 2006, 04:10 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE ARE NO LOHAR IN EVIDENCE IN THE PICTURES BUT THE ICE BEING HARVESTED LOOKS MORE LIKE COMPACTED SNOW. A TRADITIONAL ICE PICK RELIES ON THE FRACTURE PLANES IN ICE AND IN THE HANDS OF SOMEONE USED TO USING THEM CAN HANDLE ANY SIZE OF ICE OUTCROPING OR LAKE SURFACE ICE(THE ICE WOULD ALREADY HAVE TO BE REMOVED FROM A LAKE IF IT IS VERY THICK AS A ICE PICK CAN'T DO THAT JOB). THE LOHAR COULD WORK BETTER FOR CUTTING AND SHAPEING COMPRESSED SNOW AS SNOW WILL NOT FRACTURE SO IN THAT CASE IT WOULD WORK BETTER THAN AN ICE PICK. LOHAR WOULD NOT BE GOOD FOR ICE OR SNOW CLIMBING THOUGH AS THEY HAVE A SHARP EDGE ON THE BOTTOM WHICH WOULD SERVE AS A POOR CLIMBING ANCHOR. THE EDGE WOULD AID IN CUTTING THRU SNOW BY IMBEDDING THE BLADE FULLY AND THEN PULLING IT BACK PERHAPS GOING BACKWARDS TO MAKE A LONG SLICE IF THE SNOW WAS NOT TOO HARD. PERHAPS IT IS ONLY A TOOL OR PERHAPS NOT BUT IT COULD BE USED EFFECTIVELY AS A WEAPON ALSO. I WONDER WHAT THE LARGE ICE CUTTER IN THE PICTURE LOOKS LIKE UP CLOSE. THEY MAY HARVEST THE SNOW/ICE AS A WATER SOURCE OR TRANSPORT IT TO TOWN TO SELL. AS WITH MOST REASERCH IT ALWAYS SEEMS TO BRING UP MORE QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE JUST GETTING STARTED MY USE OF ALL CAPITALS DOSEN'T DENOTE EXCITEMENT OR PASSION JUST POOR EYESIGHT ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO COMPUTER SCREENS

25th November 2006, 03:12 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Not quite a Lohar......but an interesting similar weapon from Africa. Seems 'business like' so I don't think it is ceremonial..... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=011

26th November 2006, 12:18 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I've been watching this thread with great interest, and Radu, as always comes up with some fascinating perspective on these intriguing weapons and thier modern use. I personally have little doubt that they were indeed once very lethal weapons, probably used in the raiding of camps that it seems was favored as nocturnal activity in Afghan regions. Thier relatively diminutive size seems to run along with so many daggers and weapons that were meant for easy concealment ( obviously the converse applies to the huge khyber knives etc.). As for their modern use as ice picks.....not surprising at all to see a weapon with strong traditional presence finding a new , more practical use aside from its former one. It seems I've seen so many daggers and knives used as letter openers, remaining certain that these weapons were not originally designed to open letters! I could go on, with how many bayonets have ended up being garden tools....including (gasp!!) one incredible Caucasian shashka that I was once discussing with its owner by phone. Apparantly his son was in the backyard whacking weeds with it just as I told him how much it was worth !!! Best regards, Jim

1st November 2006, 09:06 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	.....I think that Leon Trotsky would vouch for the lethal qualities of an everyday ice pick.... so the injury potential of the Lohar IMHO would be greater?