Interesting Flyssa

[Oriental-Arms]

This is indeed the same Yataghan. I will gladly post photos when restoration is completed.

[Zifir]

This might be totally irrelevant and the quality of the picture is very bad. The guy in the picture seems to have a very long and distinctive type of yatagan, if it is a yatagan and I am not making it up. Any opinions?

[Tim Simmons]

It might be that many of these weapons with such mixed influences are from much older forms pan mediterranean/black sea. With examples developing local and national flavour and given different names. Modify the shape of the blade only slightly especially with the more knife sized examples and they could come from almost anywhere in the regions mentioned. Only the scabbards, handles and decoration hinting as to who used them.

[Valjhun]

Well, it surprises me that anybody brought it up yet, but i have a similar example in my collection wich was discussed here some time ago.

It is definetly a weapon of the same type, but lacking in decoration. and it is definetly an old flyssa! Ham, the pictures above could be deciving. The determinant factor is the tang.Yataghans have a full and wide tang, wich flyssas have not. Look at the notch on the backedge, another typical flyssa sign.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=flyssa

Manolo, have you got it? I saw it too, but forgot to bid (as usually) , NICE ONE!

[Emanuel]

Valjhun, I linked to your thread in post #6
I also got to it too late, I've been dying to get one for the longest time.

This one is indeed almost identical to yours, with the addition of the deep carving on the side of the blade. So far only Ham and Jim have indicated he has seen these before...does anyone else have examples of such carving on flyssa - or yataghan for that matter. I do not have Tirri's book...could anyone post the picture referred by Jim?
Emanuel

[Lew]

It seems that the rolling scroll motif is a common design on flyssa swords. I still feel that the longer straighter flyssa were more of a calvary sword while the shorter ones like the first one shown was more of a hack and slash weapon. The one that I have posted has a 3ft blade and is quiet unwieldy to be used in close quarter fighting.

Lew

[ham]

Gentlemen,

I think Jim has got the picture quite accurately.
There is no specific reference indicating that the flyssa developed from the yatagan-- it has been said more than once that Islamic/ethnic/tribal etc. arms are interesting for the very fact that they require cogitation to sort out, this is what makes them interesting. I do believe the connection is obvious, however. A quick review of Ottoman provinces in North Africa will reveal a strong and enduring Turkish presence, adding a cultural aspect to the formal evidence where flyssas are concerned.

3 additional points:

1) Note that yatagans virtually never have a backedge, while flyssas virtually always do.

2) Note that the chiselled motifs on one side of Manolo's sword are Turkic, they ultimately derive from Byzantine motifs-- they are not quite the same scrolls one finds on flyssas. These descend from a different motif.

3) For a yatagan to appear with a scabbard which is typically that of a flyssa simply suggests that it saw use in a region where flyssas were mounted. We certainly see this with every other bladeform, particularly kindjals and shamshirs.

Ham

[Jim McDougall]

Lew,
Nicely done!! I stand corrected on the scroll motif, and was focusing on the typical blade decoration, I had not noticed those scrolls on the brasswork of the hilts.
The close similarity of this weapon to the straight blade yataghans noted by Ham, and obviously the inevitable variant forms of the traditional flyssa do present a puzzle. I am inclined to rethink the likelihood that this may indeed be an Ottoman weapon from the Maghreb littoral, and plausibly may reflect
a variant or latter example of earlier Ottoman swords present there.

The straight blade form of yataghan with deep bellied blade is known in Turkey as c.1500 with one of the best provenanced examples shown as from Turkish workshops of Bayazid II ("The Age of Suleyman the Magnificent", Intl Cult.Corp.of Australia, 2000, p.64 #50). The profile of the blade is remarkably like that of the flyssa, with of course the familiar collar at the base of the blade.
Apparantly, a very similar sword, with the Ottoman 'karabela' type hilt and the blade with extremely slight curve in back, and the same deep belly profile, again remarkably as those of the flyssa, is shown as from Algerian regions dated 1746. This is shown in "Ethnographic Objects in the Royal Danish Kunsthammer 1650-1800" , National Museet, Copenhagen, 1980, p.84, EMb60a ..and is described as a diplomatic gift to Denmark in 1746, Algiers, from the Ottomans there.
It is stated in Tarussuk & Blair (1979) that an envoy of King Ferdinand VII of Spain was presented a flyssa in 1827, and that the Iflisen tribe of Kabyles had been producing these for some time.

While it does seem unusual that a distinct weapon form can remain indiginous and uninfluenced by other weapon forms without noticeable deviation, it is known in a number of ethnographic circumstances. For example, the takouba of the Tuaregs has always retained its distinct characteristics, and has coexisted in closely congruent regions and tribal groups with the Sudanese kaskara. While both simple crossguarded broadswords, they cannot be confused with one another. The tulwar of India seems to have maintained its presence within the confines of the subcontinent, and to have been used concurrently with swords such as the khanda, and often by the same warrior groups.

It seems that the straight blade 'yataghan' of early Ottoman form was present in the Maghreb at least during the 18th century, and that native armourers, especially those serving the Ottomans, would have produced similar swords. These likely were the influence of those produced by the Iflisen, and it would be great if prototype examples showing such transitional development could be seen.

Best regards,
Jim