Guards

Tim Simmons · 25th October 2006, 05:38 PM

Interesting, I think in some areas cost and technique might have something to do with it. A guard may only have an aesthetic function or be there as an adaption from tradition. Also I think a guard may be absent or minimal as the weapon was not used with the intention of fighting in a situation where swords where clashing and parrying with opponents as in films or in training. Sure some defencive moves were most probably made but I suspect especially with small inter tribal conflicts opponents were rushed at with the hope of catching them of guard or in surprise raids or ambush. A minimal guard might well have been enough in these circumstances

joshualayne · 25th October 2006, 07:18 PM

It seems like a full knuckle guard could get in the way of some fighting styles, for example (from the movies... :P) if you switch hands while fighting a knuckle guard would really get in the way.

A general crossguard could also get caught on clothing, etc... during wear (perhaps during use as well) and so would not be desirable in that sense, also an overly large straight crossguard can impede the wrist/forearm.

my $0.02

j.

Rich · 25th October 2006, 10:35 PM

On Nihonto (Japanese swords), the tsuba (hand guard) is not meant to
prevent the opponents swords from striking the hand, but rather to
prevent the users hands from slipping onto the blade. Hence many are
small and somewhat "delicate" sukashi (cut out) styles. It is rare to find
a tsuba with a sword cut on it.

Rich S

The Japanese Sword Index
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

Hrthuma ibn Marwan · 26th October 2006, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

On Nihonto (Japanese swords), the tsuba (hand guard) is not meant to
prevent the opponents swords from striking the hand, but rather to
prevent the users hands from slipping onto the blade. Hence many are
small and somewhat "delicate" sukashi (cut out) styles. It is rare to find
a tsuba with a sword cut on it.

Rich S

The Japanese Sword Index
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

^That is one good reason.

You also have to see the "ideology" behind the guards on the swords. Some might be for protection, some might be like the tsuba.
Then also, the European swords were meant for sheer power, but other swords might have been built in order to be swift and quick etc..

What I like is the european sabres and pirate swords. Usually have a good protection plus, good maneuverability

Bill M · 26th October 2006, 03:23 AM

Different fighting styles dictate different guard styles. Note the difference in european swords and Chinese. Personally I find the lines of a Chinese sword guard more appealing than a European.

Certainly many guards are from strict convention like and tradition the Moro kris and the barong.

How the handle fits is important also. I just bought a kris from a seller who knows nothing about them. He has a few for sale and he told me that some are very comfortable to hold, but one of those I bought from him was very uncomfortable. That one had the handle on backwards.

Here is a guy who never held a kris before and yet he knows that many are comfortable and one is not. He did not understand why it was uncomfortable. But this tells me that on some swords there is only one comfortable way to hold it and that was how it was designed.

Chris Evans · 26th October 2006, 06:37 AM

Hi fenlander,

Consistent with Tim's post, Egerton Castle, the renowned English swordsmanship historian of the Victorian era, observed that the degree of hand protection offered by a sword's hilt was a direct reflection of the amount of defence expected from the weapon. Until fairly late in the piece, the late renaissance, swords were primarily weapons of offence and the defence was relegated to an auxiliary implement, such a shield or dagger, or simply bodily evasion. The most basic form of defence, using a sword, is hiding behind one's blade from the threatening attack, usually called "covering". More advanced techniques involve parrying with various techniques using the blade or hilt.

As observed by Rich, handguards were also fitted simply to prevent the hand from slipping onto the blade. This is the case with most knives that carry a handguard, left hand parrying daggers excepted, as these had complex handguards designed to protect the hand from the opponent's sword.

As well as protecting and locating the hand, many handguards had a further role: That of allowing a greater control by way of improving the grip of the sword. Fingers and thumbs were often wrapped around parts of the handguard.

Cheers
Chris

fenlander · 26th October 2006, 10:48 AM

This is a great forum with having so many experts on it like the contributers to this thread, Chris etc. I am learning so many things. I think now in the age of the internet, you can learn things so much quicker than in the old days. This information on hand guards would of taken so long to study in the pre-computer era.
Anyway thanks from now on i will be looking at swords in a completely different way. I had never even thought of the guard as being there to protect ones own hand from slipping onto your own blade. I guess it is because I practice with wing chun butterfly swords that I was thinking of them (guards) only in terms of trapping the opponents sword.

25th October 2006, 07:18 PM	#2
joshualayne Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Half Moon Bay, CA Posts: 14	fighting style It seems like a full knuckle guard could get in the way of some fighting styles, for example (from the movies... :P) if you switch hands while fighting a knuckle guard would really get in the way. A general crossguard could also get caught on clothing, etc... during wear (perhaps during use as well) and so would not be desirable in that sense, also an overly large straight crossguard can impede the wrist/forearm. my $0.02 j.

26th October 2006, 10:48 AM	#7
fenlander Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 62	this is a great forum This is a great forum with having so many experts on it like the contributers to this thread, Chris etc. I am learning so many things. I think now in the age of the internet, you can learn things so much quicker than in the old days. This information on hand guards would of taken so long to study in the pre-computer era. Anyway thanks from now on i will be looking at swords in a completely different way. I had never even thought of the guard as being there to protect ones own hand from slipping onto your own blade. I guess it is because I practice with wing chun butterfly swords that I was thinking of them (guards) only in terms of trapping the opponents sword.

25th October 2006, 05:38 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,856	Interesting, I think in some areas cost and technique might have something to do with it. A guard may only have an aesthetic function or be there as an adaption from tradition. Also I think a guard may be absent or minimal as the weapon was not used with the intention of fighting in a situation where swords where clashing and parrying with opponents as in films or in training. Sure some defencive moves were most probably made but I suspect especially with small inter tribal conflicts opponents were rushed at with the hope of catching them of guard or in surprise raids or ambush. A minimal guard might well have been enough in these circumstances

25th October 2006, 10:35 PM	#3
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	On Nihonto (Japanese swords), the tsuba (hand guard) is not meant to prevent the opponents swords from striking the hand, but rather to prevent the users hands from slipping onto the blade. Hence many are small and somewhat "delicate" sukashi (cut out) styles. It is rare to find a tsuba with a sword cut on it. Rich S The Japanese Sword Index http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

26th October 2006, 03:23 AM	#5
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Different fighting styles dictate different guard styles. Note the difference in european swords and Chinese. Personally I find the lines of a Chinese sword guard more appealing than a European. Certainly many guards are from strict convention like and tradition the Moro kris and the barong. How the handle fits is important also. I just bought a kris from a seller who knows nothing about them. He has a few for sale and he told me that some are very comfortable to hold, but one of those I bought from him was very uncomfortable. That one had the handle on backwards. Here is a guy who never held a kris before and yet he knows that many are comfortable and one is not. He did not understand why it was uncomfortable. But this tells me that on some swords there is only one comfortable way to hold it and that was how it was designed.

26th October 2006, 06:37 AM	#6
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi fenlander, Consistent with Tim's post, Egerton Castle, the renowned English swordsmanship historian of the Victorian era, observed that the degree of hand protection offered by a sword's hilt was a direct reflection of the amount of defence expected from the weapon. Until fairly late in the piece, the late renaissance, swords were primarily weapons of offence and the defence was relegated to an auxiliary implement, such a shield or dagger, or simply bodily evasion. The most basic form of defence, using a sword, is hiding behind one's blade from the threatening attack, usually called "covering". More advanced techniques involve parrying with various techniques using the blade or hilt. As observed by Rich, handguards were also fitted simply to prevent the hand from slipping onto the blade. This is the case with most knives that carry a handguard, left hand parrying daggers excepted, as these had complex handguards designed to protect the hand from the opponent's sword. As well as protecting and locating the hand, many handguards had a further role: That of allowing a greater control by way of improving the grip of the sword. Fingers and thumbs were often wrapped around parts of the handguard. Cheers Chris