Old Argentinian facon ...

[Hrthuma ibn Marwan]

how interesting really

[Lew]

Ian

It looks like an interesting dagger late 19th century I would say.


Lew

[Ian]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Ian

It looks like an interesting dagger late 19th century I would say.

Lew

Hi Lew:

Yes, I would think around 1900 give or take a decade or two. There are a couple of books on the Argentinian facón by Abel Domenech, one called Del Facón al Bowie and another called Dagas de Plata. Many facón were cut down swords or bayonets.

Ian.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Ian,

That is not a facon, at least in the nowadays regionally and commonly accepted sense of the word (facon simply means large knife). It looks like some mid to late 19th century Euro dagger, of probably military provenace. What these days is called a facon is some kind of cut down sword or bayonet blade mounted with a locally made hilt, usually in silver. See Dagas de Plata. The South Americans could not make blades, but had the means to fashion handcrafted hilts, almost always from silver sheet.

Cheers
Chris

[Lee]

In the picture below, the two on the top, I believe, would be facónes while the two on the bottom are cuchillas or gaucho knives. The blade on the top facón appears to have been purpose made, while that on the next lower knife appears to be a cut-down sword blade. I am told that the presence of a guard of some sort is required to term a particular example a facón.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Lee,

Spot on.

A very small correction. Cuchillo is in the masculine gender and is used to describe narrow bladed knives, whereas cuchilla, in the feminine gender, is used for broader blades.

If a cuchillo has a sharp or dull false edge then it may be called a puñal (poniard)

Cheers
Chris

[Lee]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

A very small correction. Cuchillo is in the masculine gender and is used to describe narrow bladed knives, whereas cuchilla, in the feminine gender, is used for broader blades.

Thank you Chris, I will note this for the future. I have also ordered Abel Domenech's “Dagas de plata.”

It was pointed out that the top one does not have a guard.

Actually, there is a guard, it is just small and not well seen in the picture.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Ian,

That is not a facon, at least in the nowadays regionally and commonly accepted sense of the word (facon simply means large knife). It looks like some mid to late 19th century Euro dagger, of probably military provenace. What these days is called a facon is some kind of cut down sword or bayonet blade mounted with a locally made hilt, usually in silver. See Dagas de Plata. The South Americans could not make blades, but had the means to fashion handcrafted hilts, almost always from silver sheet.

Cheers
Chris

Thanks Chris. You could be right. However, this knife was sold out of Buenos Aries as an antique knife (which it appears to be), and it has the characteristics that I associate with a facón: long blade, guard, leather sheath with a seam running down the front. Agree, that the brass hilt is atypical but not unheard of on South American knives. Could be a military blade. But I'll bet an old gaucho would have loved it and called it his facón if he had gotten his hands on it.

This knife is certainly a weapon, although it could be used for any purpose needing a sharp edge. And the gauchos used their facónes for just about any chore they could be used.

Cheers,

Ian.

[Ian]

Lee:

Great old knives. Thanks for posting them.

I wonder whether the top one in your picture might be a Brazilian faca da ponta -- I understand they often did not have a guard, and it does resemble some of the plated examples that are seen quite commonly. Perhaps Chris could explain the difference between the facón and faca (besides one word being Spanish and the other Portuguese).

I recently picked up a couple of faca from a seller in Portugal and will post pictures when they arrive. Both appear to be 19th C. One has clearly been cut down from a longer blade.

They are here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=290033335500

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=290033333008

Ian.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Ian,

Originally Posted by Ian

I wonder whether the top one in your picture might be a Brazilian faca da ponta -- I understand they often did not have a guard, and it does resemble some of the plated examples that are seen quite commonly. Perhaps Chris could explain the difference between the facón and faca (besides one word being Spanish and the other Portuguese).

.

I do not speak Portuguese, but faca simply means knife and the Spanish adopted this term in some parts of their country. Perhaps Fernando can correct me here. Not used much these days isn Spain and the Spanish version of e-bay will not recognize the word facon.

In Spanish if we attach "on" onto another word then it denotes a greater than normal size. So for example "navaja" is changed to "navajon", then it means that we are dealing with a large navaja. Same with faca and facon.


Hope this helps
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Hi Ian,

I chose my words carefully when I said that "That is not a facon, at least in the nowadays regionally and commonly accepted sense of the word"

Facon simply means a large knife and all kinds of large and small knives found their way into the hands of Gauchos. Those silver hilted and ornate knives that these days are associated with them are very much a mid to late 19th century phenomena. As well, only the wealthy could afford them - Station owners, their overseers and the like.

As you can see it is not possible to say exactly what is a facon, especially what was a facon in the old days. According to some, any knife tucked into the belt of a Gaucho is a facon. However, authorities like Domenech and the late Osornio did make an attempt to standardize the terminology, though Domenech acknowledges that there is always something or another that escapes his definitions. If you care to, you may wish to drop a line to Abel Domenech and find out first hand. He speaks fluent English and has a website (down as I write this, but do a Google later)

Be all that as it may, it is certainly a very handsome piece.

Cheers
Chris

[Ian]

Thanks Chris. I will drop the honorable gentleman a note after I get the knife.

Ian.

[Robert]

Here is a dagger that I have had for a while now but was never quite sure where it was from. At first I thought it was from the Philippines but I'm really not sure anymore. Maybe the experts can say for sure. It is approximently 17 and 1/4" long total. 12-3/4" blade and a 4-3/4" Hilt. It is flat on one side and tapered on the other. It has a crosswork design on the Blades taper side.The Hilt and pommel are Brass and wood in an octagon configuration with some design work on the guard. It has a sheepskin or goatskin sewn sheath which has shrunk with age but it still fits on the blade.