Mystery sword

Philip · 23rd October 2006, 08:38 PM

Mr. Ferguson
Thanks for the Bhutanese name. Do you speak the language? If so, could you share with us please some other sword terms (i.e. for the various parts, styles, etc.)?

As re your use of the term "ke tri" for the Tibetan sword, I know that it's used in an article on the subject here on this site. However when I used it when discussing it with Tibetan sword guru Donald LaRocca of the Met (he curated the recent exhibition mentioned above and has studied the Tibetan language for years), he advised me that "ke tri" is not the correct term. I was told that "ral gri" or "gri" is the standard generic name for the weapon (the latter also is used in prior academic books, in particular Siegbert Hummel's TIBETISCHES KUNSTHANDWERK IN METALL).

I would suggest that if terminology interests you, that you order a copy of the Met's exhibit catalog, and enjoy the extensive glossary that Don has compiled. It even has each entry spelled in the Tibetan script, and is well cross-referenced.

Philip · 23rd October 2006, 08:39 PM

Bill, you're most welcome. Thanks again for sharing such an interesting piece with us!

Dajak · 24th October 2006, 07:04 AM

Hi Bill take a look at this one

http://www.liongate-armsandarmour.com/rb13.htm

REGARDS , Ben

Philip · 24th October 2006, 09:45 AM

Hi, Dajak
Thanks for the link. I've seen this before, Rob Miller at Liongate sent it to me for a look-see. Doesn't appear to be Bhutanese. Handle is vaguely similar in profile, but the way it's made and assembled is not. Blade shape and the lamination of the steel on his example is atypical for the region, as is the short ricasso at the forte which seems inspired by a European bayonet or military sword.

As far as what this piece actually is, I don't know. But it doesn't fit the parameters of Bhutanese sword design.

Ferguson · 24th October 2006, 07:25 PM

Philip, Unfortunately, one word is the extent of my Bhutanese.

I researched the word when I received a short sword from Himalayan Imports (the khukuri makers) that was named a Patang. It didn't resemble Bills sword, and was more "inspired by" the Bhutanese sword, than a copy of it.

Thanks so much for the correct terminolgy of the Tibetan sword. I much prefer to use the words that the people of the region would use.

Steve

drdavid · 24th October 2006, 10:43 PM

Hi Bill
it is interesting to note the similarities in the guard, the collar throat and the handle between your piece and the more common Butanese daggers like the one attached.
drd

dennee · 25th October 2006, 04:37 AM

Bill, an interesting sword. I'm jealous. I think the most interesting things are the differences from the most common patags. First, the inlay seems uncommon. While the milled or reeded (brass?) band at the base of the hilt is typical, the way the characteristically octagonal-section grip swells there, with "shoulders" parallel to the blade, is indeed more like some knives than the typical grip with a convex curve all around. The pommel is unusual in its simplicity compared to many I have seen (although I have one that has a simple, octagonal nickel-silver cap), as many swords have the typical pierced-work "gubor." It resembles some simple, southeastern Tibetan steel pommels in a general hexagonal shape and in the provision of two small holes through which to pass a thong or lanyard.

23rd October 2006, 08:38 PM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Tibetan word for sword Mr. Ferguson Thanks for the Bhutanese name. Do you speak the language? If so, could you share with us please some other sword terms (i.e. for the various parts, styles, etc.)? As re your use of the term "ke tri" for the Tibetan sword, I know that it's used in an article on the subject here on this site. However when I used it when discussing it with Tibetan sword guru Donald LaRocca of the Met (he curated the recent exhibition mentioned above and has studied the Tibetan language for years), he advised me that "ke tri" is not the correct term. I was told that "ral gri" or "gri" is the standard generic name for the weapon (the latter also is used in prior academic books, in particular Siegbert Hummel's TIBETISCHES KUNSTHANDWERK IN METALL). I would suggest that if terminology interests you, that you order a copy of the Met's exhibit catalog, and enjoy the extensive glossary that Don has compiled. It even has each entry spelled in the Tibetan script, and is well cross-referenced.

24th October 2006, 09:45 AM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	close but no cigar Hi, Dajak Thanks for the link. I've seen this before, Rob Miller at Liongate sent it to me for a look-see. Doesn't appear to be Bhutanese. Handle is vaguely similar in profile, but the way it's made and assembled is not. Blade shape and the lamination of the steel on his example is atypical for the region, as is the short ricasso at the forte which seems inspired by a European bayonet or military sword. As far as what this piece actually is, I don't know. But it doesn't fit the parameters of Bhutanese sword design.

24th October 2006, 10:43 PM	#6
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	similarities Hi Bill it is interesting to note the similarities in the guard, the collar throat and the handle between your piece and the more common Butanese daggers like the one attached. drd Attached Images

23rd October 2006, 08:39 PM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Bill, you're most welcome. Thanks again for sharing such an interesting piece with us!

24th October 2006, 07:04 AM	#3
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Bill take a look at this one http://www.liongate-armsandarmour.com/rb13.htm REGARDS , Ben

24th October 2006, 07:25 PM	#5
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Philip, Unfortunately, one word is the extent of my Bhutanese. I researched the word when I received a short sword from Himalayan Imports (the khukuri makers) that was named a Patang. It didn't resemble Bills sword, and was more "inspired by" the Bhutanese sword, than a copy of it. Thanks so much for the correct terminolgy of the Tibetan sword. I much prefer to use the words that the people of the region would use. Steve

25th October 2006, 04:37 AM	#7
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Bill, an interesting sword. I'm jealous. I think the most interesting things are the differences from the most common patags. First, the inlay seems uncommon. While the milled or reeded (brass?) band at the base of the hilt is typical, the way the characteristically octagonal-section grip swells there, with "shoulders" parallel to the blade, is indeed more like some knives than the typical grip with a convex curve all around. The pommel is unusual in its simplicity compared to many I have seen (although I have one that has a simple, octagonal nickel-silver cap), as many swords have the typical pierced-work "gubor." It resembles some simple, southeastern Tibetan steel pommels in a general hexagonal shape and in the provision of two small holes through which to pass a thong or lanyard.