Old Tibetan Phurba for comment or information

Tim Simmons · 22nd October 2006, 07:45 PM

I do not think it is African. I will hold back untill we see some better pics but I am glad you think the same. The style of the fish and the overall decoration scream something else to me.

Bill M · 22nd October 2006, 09:45 PM

I agree this piece has several stylistic differences with Tibetan and Nepalese phurbas. The center section outlined does resemble the dorje, but I think only a resemblance. The faces on the sides look like African Dan masks.

Quite a strange piece.

katana · 22nd October 2006, 10:12 PM

Its really strange....when I first viewed this I actually thought African....when I received it the fish carving seemed .Australasian...I've searched other examples of Tibetan Phurba and there were other examples of the fish carving.

I am told that this was brought back from Tibet by the buyer....and is not a tourist item...

Bill M · 23rd October 2006, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Its really strange....when I first viewed this I actually thought African....when I received it the fish carving seemed .Australasian...I've searched other examples of Tibetan Phurba and there were other examples of the fish carving.

I am told that this was brought back from Tibet by the buyer....and is not a tourist item...

Don't think it is a phurba, though many of them are made of wood. At 30" long it would be MUCH bigger than any I have seen, usually they are no more than ten to eleven inches long.

There are some Tibetan and Nepalese shaman drum handles that get longer, but I don't think this is a drum handle either. Most of these handles are no more than about twenty inches long though I do have a temple drum that has a longer handle. But it is thicker.

How thick is your piece?

Does the pointed end have a metal cap?

Perhaps this is some kind of wand???

Something about it disturbs me.

spiral · 23rd October 2006, 10:59 AM

Looks full of classical Nepali {perhaps Tamang.} shamanic symbolism to me, Havent seen one that size before though.

Almost looks like bottom half is standerd Phurba, & top half is whats unusual.

Spiral

katana · 23rd October 2006, 10:57 PM

Thanks Spiral....good call....you certainly seem to be in the right area

I found two images of 'full sized' masks from that area....not identical to those on the 'phurba' but demonstrates similarities... On the picture below them I've indicated where it feels comfortable to hold (just feels right ..and 'rub marks' seem to confirm this) Feels more like a Phurba 'sword' or 'spear'...than dagger.
Tim I will try and post daylight pics soon, (if the rain stops

) Very intriqued about this piece...cannot seem to find a similar sized one anywhere on the web.....

Captain D · 1st November 2006, 02:50 PM

At first I was skeptical about this actually being a phurba at all, mostly because of the style of carving which at first glance does look African in its execution. After closer consideration of the pics and doing some research into the vast extent of the phurba cult across Central Asia, I think it may very well be a phurba after all, but one far removed from Tibet, possibly Mongolian. It does display the essential morphological features that define a phurba, namely a three-sided blade and cylindrical handle. It also seems to feature stylized renditions of traditional phurba iconography: The makara head from whose mouth the blade projects, the dorje or vajra ("diamond thunderbolt") carving of the lower handle, and the three faces of the phurba deity. The rest is decorated in the local motifs of the region where it was crafted. What needs to be understood when viewing phurba is that despite being called "ceremonial daggers", phurba have their origins among the nomadic tribes of Central Asia as tent pegs. The word "phurba" means something like "to spike, or nail", having the connotation of pinning something to the ground. They are most commonly made of iron, though hardwood examples are by no means uncommon. Their use as a shamanic ritual weapon against demons predates the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet by 1000 years or more. Whatever the case, it's a very unique and curious artifact.

Ian · 1st November 2006, 04:41 PM

Welcome to the EAA Forum Captain D.

I deleted your duplicate post when confirming your registration on the forum. If there was anything in your second message that is not in the first, please add it back.

Ian

23rd October 2006, 10:57 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thanks Spiral....good call....you certainly seem to be in the right area I found two images of 'full sized' masks from that area....not identical to those on the 'phurba' but demonstrates similarities... On the picture below them I've indicated where it feels comfortable to hold (just feels right ..and 'rub marks' seem to confirm this) Feels more like a Phurba 'sword' or 'spear'...than dagger. Tim I will try and post daylight pics soon, (if the rain stops ) Very intriqued about this piece...cannot seem to find a similar sized one anywhere on the web..... Attached Images

1st November 2006, 04:41 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,399	Welcome ... Welcome to the EAA Forum Captain D. I deleted your duplicate post when confirming your registration on the forum. If there was anything in your second message that is not in the first, please add it back. Ian Last edited by Ian; 1st November 2006 at 08:13 PM.

22nd October 2006, 07:45 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I do not think it is African. I will hold back untill we see some better pics but I am glad you think the same. The style of the fish and the overall decoration scream something else to me.

22nd October 2006, 09:45 PM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I agree this piece has several stylistic differences with Tibetan and Nepalese phurbas. The center section outlined does resemble the dorje, but I think only a resemblance. The faces on the sides look like African Dan masks. Quite a strange piece.

22nd October 2006, 10:12 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Its really strange....when I first viewed this I actually thought African....when I received it the fish carving seemed .Australasian...I've searched other examples of Tibetan Phurba and there were other examples of the fish carving. I am told that this was brought back from Tibet by the buyer....and is not a tourist item...

23rd October 2006, 10:59 AM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Looks full of classical Nepali {perhaps Tamang.} shamanic symbolism to me, Havent seen one that size before though. Almost looks like bottom half is standerd Phurba, & top half is whats unusual. Spiral

1st November 2006, 02:50 PM	#7
Captain D Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 6	At first I was skeptical about this actually being a phurba at all, mostly because of the style of carving which at first glance does look African in its execution. After closer consideration of the pics and doing some research into the vast extent of the phurba cult across Central Asia, I think it may very well be a phurba after all, but one far removed from Tibet, possibly Mongolian. It does display the essential morphological features that define a phurba, namely a three-sided blade and cylindrical handle. It also seems to feature stylized renditions of traditional phurba iconography: The makara head from whose mouth the blade projects, the dorje or vajra ("diamond thunderbolt") carving of the lower handle, and the three faces of the phurba deity. The rest is decorated in the local motifs of the region where it was crafted. What needs to be understood when viewing phurba is that despite being called "ceremonial daggers", phurba have their origins among the nomadic tribes of Central Asia as tent pegs. The word "phurba" means something like "to spike, or nail", having the connotation of pinning something to the ground. They are most commonly made of iron, though hardwood examples are by no means uncommon. Their use as a shamanic ritual weapon against demons predates the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet by 1000 years or more. Whatever the case, it's a very unique and curious artifact.