Mystery sword

Lew · 22nd October 2006, 05:08 PM

Bill

The sword is from Bhutan.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2308

Lew

Bill M · 22nd October 2006, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Bill

The sword is from Bhutan.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2308

Lew

thanks Lew, I knew that handle shape was familiar. Most I have seen have been more like the fancy one on Artzi'x site that you so kindly provided.

I like both the ceremonial pieces and the battle veterans. Mine sure looks like a user. Quite sharp also.

Any idea what it is called? Some particular variety or name?

Lew · 22nd October 2006, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Any idea what it is called? Some particular variety or name?

Sorry Bill my Bhutanese is a little rusty

Maybe you should contact Artzi he might be able to help?

Lew

Philip · 23rd October 2006, 07:51 AM

Donald LaRocca, assoc. curator of arms and armor at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, has written a masterful catalog for the exhibition, "Warriors of the Himalayas: Rediscovering the Arms and Armor of Tibet" (NY: Metro. Mus. of Art / New Haven: Yale University, 2006). There is a rather fancy example of one of these swords, with its original scabbard (the one photographed on this thread has a modern replacement of non-traditional construction), identified as Bhutanese (cat. no. 73, p 171). Mr. LaRocca's notation states that such swords "are often found in southern and eastern Tibet".

The catalog doesn't provide the Bhutanese name for these weapons; I will attempt to contact a gentleman in Bhutan who was in touch with me a few years back (hope his email addie is still the same) ane will let you know what he says.

The Tibetans who used these swords would probably have called them DPA' DAM, referring specifically to a long bladed sword with an oblique tip. The generic term for sword in Tibetan is "ral gri". See the glossary in the above-cited book for additional sword terms in Tibetan.

Philip · 23rd October 2006, 08:06 AM

Bill,
These Bhutanese swords are descended from the straight, single-edged backswords used in China and Korea during the medieval dynasties and which were also the basis for the very earliest swords in Japan. Blade contour is the same (although the Chinese/Korean versions have the ridge down each face of the blade which in Japan became the "shinogi" that you see on the typical "samurai sword".

The construction of your hilt is pretty close to those on some of those Sino-Japanese types; see THE JAPANESE SWORD: IRON CRAFTSMANSHIP AND THE WARRIOR SPIRIT, Tokyo National Museum, 1997, cat. no. 29, 59, 60, 63.

The fellow who sold you the sword was saying "Iranian" probably because single edged, oblique-tipped blades of very similar shape were known in the Middle East. An example of one of these very rare swords is cat. no. 71 in Unsal Yucel, ISLAMIC SWORDS AND SWORDSMITHS, Istanbul: IRCICA, 2001. That blade is attributed to the Mamluk ruler Qansuh al-Ghawri, 1501-1517.

Bill M · 23rd October 2006, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Bill,
These Bhutanese swords are descended from the straight, single-edged backswords used in China and Korea during the medieval dynasties and which were also the basis for the very earliest swords in Japan. Blade contour is the same (although the Chinese/Korean versions have the ridge down each face of the blade which in Japan became the "shinogi" that you see on the typical "samurai sword".

The construction of your hilt is pretty close to those on some of those Sino-Japanese types; see THE JAPANESE SWORD: IRON CRAFTSMANSHIP AND THE WARRIOR SPIRIT, Tokyo National Museum, 1997, cat. no. 29, 59, 60, 63.

The fellow who sold you the sword was saying "Iranian" probably because single edged, oblique-tipped blades of very similar shape were known in the Middle East. An example of one of these very rare swords is cat. no. 71 in Unsal Yucel, ISLAMIC SWORDS AND SWORDSMITHS, Istanbul: IRCICA, 2001. That blade is attributed to the Mamluk ruler Qansuh al-Ghawri, 1501-1517.

Dear Phillip,

So very good to hear from you again!

I have ordered the cat you recommended and already have "Islamic Swords..." On the way from a previous order.

I will look check these references.

Thank you for the great information!

Bill

Mark · 23rd October 2006, 04:35 PM

One of the nicest features of Bhutanese swords, in my opinion, is the hairpin folding pattern in the blades. Such a pattern is faintly visible in yours under the patina and rust. If you are not averse to restoration (versus conservation), you might want to have it polished a bit and etched to bring out the pattern.

Bill M · 23rd November 2006, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Donald LaRocca, assoc. curator of arms and armor at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, has written a masterful catalog for the exhibition, "Warriors of the Himalayas: Rediscovering the Arms and Armor of Tibet" (NY: Metro. Mus. of Art / New Haven: Yale University, 2006). There is a rather fancy example of one of these swords, with its original scabbard (the one photographed on this thread has a modern replacement of non-traditional construction), identified as Bhutanese (cat. no. 73, p 171). Mr. LaRocca's notation states that such swords "are often found in southern and eastern Tibet".

The Tibetans who used these swords would probably have called them DPA' DAM, referring specifically to a long bladed sword with an oblique tip. The generic term for sword in Tibetan is "ral gri". See the glossary in the above-cited book for additional sword terms in Tibetan.

Phillip,

I just received my copy of this incredible book. I cannot recommend it too highly. It is a "must have" and even if people are not studying this area, a wonderful read.

I believe that you did some writing for the Met?

Best
Bill

Thank you again for letting us know about it!

23rd October 2006, 07:51 AM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	origin of sword / terminology Donald LaRocca, assoc. curator of arms and armor at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, has written a masterful catalog for the exhibition, "Warriors of the Himalayas: Rediscovering the Arms and Armor of Tibet" (NY: Metro. Mus. of Art / New Haven: Yale University, 2006). There is a rather fancy example of one of these swords, with its original scabbard (the one photographed on this thread has a modern replacement of non-traditional construction), identified as Bhutanese (cat. no. 73, p 171). Mr. LaRocca's notation states that such swords "are often found in southern and eastern Tibet". The catalog doesn't provide the Bhutanese name for these weapons; I will attempt to contact a gentleman in Bhutan who was in touch with me a few years back (hope his email addie is still the same) ane will let you know what he says. The Tibetans who used these swords would probably have called them DPA' DAM, referring specifically to a long bladed sword with an oblique tip. The generic term for sword in Tibetan is "ral gri". See the glossary in the above-cited book for additional sword terms in Tibetan.

23rd October 2006, 08:06 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	prototype / variations elsewhere Bill, These Bhutanese swords are descended from the straight, single-edged backswords used in China and Korea during the medieval dynasties and which were also the basis for the very earliest swords in Japan. Blade contour is the same (although the Chinese/Korean versions have the ridge down each face of the blade which in Japan became the "shinogi" that you see on the typical "samurai sword". The construction of your hilt is pretty close to those on some of those Sino-Japanese types; see THE JAPANESE SWORD: IRON CRAFTSMANSHIP AND THE WARRIOR SPIRIT, Tokyo National Museum, 1997, cat. no. 29, 59, 60, 63. The fellow who sold you the sword was saying "Iranian" probably because single edged, oblique-tipped blades of very similar shape were known in the Middle East. An example of one of these very rare swords is cat. no. 71 in Unsal Yucel, ISLAMIC SWORDS AND SWORDSMITHS, Istanbul: IRCICA, 2001. That blade is attributed to the Mamluk ruler Qansuh al-Ghawri, 1501-1517.

22nd October 2006, 05:08 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Bill The sword is from Bhutan. http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2308 Lew

23rd October 2006, 04:35 PM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	One of the nicest features of Bhutanese swords, in my opinion, is the hairpin folding pattern in the blades. Such a pattern is faintly visible in yours under the patina and rust. If you are not averse to restoration (versus conservation), you might want to have it polished a bit and etched to bring out the pattern.