Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

nechesh · 11th February 2005, 05:33 AM

Sorry Wayne, but i'm afraid i have to disagree with you here. The keris would have been a special and unique weapon with or without the Prambanan meteorite, though certainly the possibility of pamor from the stars has increased that somewhat. But i think it is important that we dispell these meteorite myths somewhat. Yes, a certain amount of court pieces from the 19th and possibly early 20th century were made, but this is hardly the bulk or height of keris history. Still there are many folks out there who still believe that all keris were made this way. There are many keris, especially earlier ones that don't even use nickelous pamor, just various irons to create contrast in patterns. These keris are still special and unique.

BSMStar · 11th February 2005, 04:04 PM

nechesh,

Don't be sorry, the fault is mine. I know that I seem to suggest that only meteorites make the Keris "special" but... I fully agree with you!

It’s the pamor, and much, much more that makes the Keris so special. I was just referring to the one aspect that has been attached to the Keris... it's the pamor and meteorites that have separated the Keris from most weapons... which I believe is what started this thread.

Even not knowing the association with meteorites, who can gaze upon a wondrous Keris blade and not desire one? (I know the "bug" bit me bad!)

wolviex · 11th February 2005, 04:54 PM

Forgive me this question of ignorant European - how we can recognize meteoric iron or nickel on the blade?

nechesh · 11th February 2005, 06:35 PM

Aye wolviex, there's the rub!

Rick · 11th February 2005, 06:41 PM

From the archives :

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html
Maybe some questions are answered here .

BSMStar · 11th February 2005, 11:36 PM

Your amazing Rick!

That was a great thread. Kind of fun to watch the Ti learning curve, thought important and later on to fall apart as not true...

I am still interested in learn more on how to identify pamor made with meteorite... it was a bit vague. Other than touch, are there any pictures that may be helpful? ASU has an Electron Micro Probe that will do the trick, but they will only test meteorites.

Rick · 12th February 2005, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Your amazing Rick!

That was a great thread. Kind of fun to watch the Ti learning curve, thought important and later on to fall apart as not true...

I am still interested in learn more on how to identify pamor made with meteorite... it was a bit vague. Other than touch, are there any pictures that may be helpful?

We have covered a lot of subjects in the last 7-8 years .
Forum Search is a great resource .

For pictures ???
Well ....................
there's always ebay , I see lots of examples there .

tom hyle · 18th February 2005, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

From the archives :

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html
Maybe some questions are answered here .

Wow! Way cool. I note that the foreign wootz was considered an interesting material for a ganga, but not suitable for a fine blade

nechesh · 18th February 2005, 04:10 PM

Sorry Henk, it was not my intention to imply that Tammens claimed Groneman was told about meteoric pamor. This is just my logical assumption based on the fact that he was working with the epmus of the time when this pamor may have still been used and they, no doubt, still had a clear memory of the previous generation of empus who had been their teachers. I think it unlikely that since we don't seem to have a test today that can determine for sure if these forged metals are from celestial origins that they didn't have one in 1900 either. So what scientic test could Grneman have used to come up with such a finding. The word of the empus and perhaps seeing them actually working with meteoric pamor was probably enough evidence to the fact.
And no Tom, the idea of meteoric pamor is not a confusion. There is plenty of evidence that the Prambanan fall was used for this purpose. The confusion came later when somehow it became legend that ALL keris were made of such metals.
Okhba3, your information is very interesting. I would love to hear more evidence to this, since i am the eternal skeptic

. It is, of course, completely counter to the research of Tammens, but since i have already taken a swipe at some of that research i am not beyond believing that he may have been mistaken on this as well. I was not aware of these new discoveries and look foward to finding out more.

nechesh · 13th February 2005, 05:39 AM

Recently the work of the Polish metalurgist Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski has come to my attention. He has done considerable work in the analysis of keris structure. It is my understanding that even if you were to destroy a piece of a keris for analysis you would not be able to determine extra-terrestial origin after the materials have gone through the forging and welding process. Does anyone else know of any reputatable researcher who has actually worked on this subject that has a different answer to this question?
I find the concept of meteoric pamor to be very enticing like, i believe, most do. I certainly wouldn't mind owning a keris with such pamor. But i find the focus on this subject as relating to keris a bit troublesome. Why? So many reference books make mention of it, countless dealers lay claim to it in their keris. The facts as can best be sorted out is that meteoric pamor was used for a SELECT FEW keris beginning in the 19th century. So it was used for a relatively short period of time (100+yrs.) and even then it was far from the majority of keris being produced even in that century. It has done nothing to increase the artist level of keris making and though i can see why it might increase the spiritual value of a keris, this attribute of the blade did not begin nor end with the use of such a pamor material. I guess what i am driving at is that meteoric pamor is quite a bit over-valued as an aspect of keris study. It becomes a distraction of sorts. And unfortunately, unless it is a recently made blade that you had a part in the making of, or a court blade with considerable provenence (few and far between), one can never know for sure whether it's "star metal" or not.

Jens Nordlunde · 13th February 2005, 11:10 AM

Wolviex wrote: Forgive me this question of ignorant European - how we can recognize meteoric iron or nickel on the blade?

From the discussion it seems as if we can't be sure, but I did somewhere read that some could feel a prickle in the fingers when toutching meteoric iron. This does however not give any garantee as you can't prove that the blade is made of meteoric iron - besides I think that a strongly magbetic blade could/would give the same feeling.

Jens

BSMStar · 13th February 2005, 07:36 PM

nechesh,

Trace elements are a give away for cosmic origin... which is why chemical analysis is important. Yes... we can tell.

I find it troubling to use feel as a way to determine... since these blades are older and are likely to have been etched many times, where does the pattern or surface profile from etching fit in to this approach?

Is there no visually pattern reserved for this pamor?

Jens... I'm with you, more than a bit confussed.

I agree meteoritic pamor is not critical... but of historically importance and value.

nechesh · 13th February 2005, 08:39 PM

Wayne, i realize you are a scientist and when you refer to "yes...we can tell" i assume you are referring to the scientific community in general. I don't mean to challenge you on this point, but what are your experiences with metalurgy. I understand that you are a color chemist, which sounds really cool even if i don't know quite what you do, but does this qualify you to make this statement? Are you familar with Prof. Piaskowski's work? He has done years of study and compilation of data on this very subject and it is his belief, apparently, that you can not tell cosmic origin in keris metals that have been forged and welded. I know that scientists are apt to disagree, but until i hear research from another scientist who has actually tried to determine these factors with as many forged keris as Prof. Piaskowski has done i am inclined to lean towards his position on the matter, not being of the mind or abilities to do such research for myself.

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2005, 09:24 PM

I think the study of the use of meteoric metal from scientific perspective is fascinating, and the discussion here with those of you expert in keris and Indonesian weapons is excellent!
While somewhat digressing from the scientific perspective, I am wondering if the references and descriptions applied to these blades in earlier narratives referring to 'meteoric steel' may have been intended aesthetically. It seems that in the glossaries of keris jargon there are terms that apply specifically to such blades.

In "The Sword in Anglo Saxon England" by H.R.Ellis Davidson , N.Y. 1962,
on p.22 the author notes, "...Forbes suggested that the damask patterns might have been inspired by meteorites, which are covered with a thin film of iron oxide and when forged at low temperatures produce a distant pattern".

*"Metallurgy in Antiquity" R.J.Forbes, Leiden, 1950

While acknowledging that there were actually blades forged with this extra terrestrial material included with regular materials, I am wondering if possibly the term 'meteoric' may refer to a certain pattern or appearance in pamor.

Concerning the empirical approach to examining these blades metallurgically, after being faithfully hooked on the television series C.S.I. and the compelling forensics dramas, I cannot imagine that extra terrestrial origins of certain components could not be discovered in the labratory!!!

I sure wouldnt want to volunteer one of my prize weapons though!!! That is if I DID have one of these beautiful keris!

Best regards,
Jim

Kiai Carita · 26th April 2005, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Sorry Wayne, but i'm afraid i have to disagree with you here. The keris would have been a special and unique weapon with or without the Prambanan meteorite, though certainly the possibility of pamor from the stars has increased that somewhat. But i think it is important that we dispell these meteorite myths somewhat. Yes, a certain amount of court pieces from the 19th and possibly early 20th century were made, but this is hardly the bulk or height of keris history. Still there are many folks out there who still believe that all keris were made this way. There are many keris, especially earlier ones that don't even use nickelous pamor, just various irons to create contrast in patterns. These keris are still special and unique.

I think there is evidence that meteorite pamor was used before the Prambanan meteorite was taken into the Keraton Surakarta as there is evidence of the trading of meteorite before the Prambanan pamor. Empus practised meditations which alowed them to find peices of metal and often Empus would travel collecting pieces of iron to make keris. The Dayak in Kalimantan also make the best mandau from batu bintang.

Meteorite is an important symbolic part of the keris and apart from the pangawak waja and the kelengan type of keris every Empu would try to have at least a little bit of meteorite in the mixture of the metals used in the pamor as a syarat. The pangawak waja and kelengan blades don't have any pamor for esoteric reasons before the material reasons. The Javanese had a metallurgy based on the feeling rasa of different irons and pamor materials and this knowledge and art is what governs the behaviour of the Empu.

The simple academic answer to the question of meteorite and keris is that the keris was invented by the Gods and brought to Java by Aji Saka from Hindustan and until the Dutch interference in the keris world the keris continued to develop in Java according to Javanese lore. One of the main changes in the javanese attitude towards the keris happened during the Great Depression when the Dutch pawn shops valued the well dressed and new keris higher than old and more magical but simply dressed tayuhan keris.

During the Majapahit empire the keris spread throughout South East Asia and developed into the weapon of the Malay world. The fall of Majapahit and the introduction of Islam and cannon developed the keris in different ways in different SEA regions but essentially it is a prayer and not a weapon.

Of course kerises have been used to kill and in some parts of SEA they are made to kill as well but the Java keris is never intended to kill. The instances when there has been a Java keris killing in history are remembered by the Javanese as mistakes, wrongs, and the event was unusual. One of the most common dapur of the keris, the Tilam Upih, often has a blade so thin that it would be close to useles as a stabbing weapon.

In fact the story of Aji Saka as recorded in the Javanese hanacaraka alphabet might give a clue as to why the keris is never meant to be used to kill in Java.

nechesh · 29th April 2005, 12:42 AM

Kiai, I would love to hear you evidence. I am sure you understand that stating that there is evidence is not the same as actually presenting evidence. There may well have been unrecorded meteor strikes on Jawa that we are unaware of, but given the size of the place, the fact that very, very few meteorite actually strike the Earth (most burn up in the atmosphere), and that of those that do, most do not contain the proper pamor materials, it just doesn't seem likely that enough of this material coulds have existed at such an early time to allow for meteorite to become so crucial to keris making that every empu would be able to include even a little in every keris they made. I look forward to your evidence because quite frankly, i would like to believe you are correct.

Kiai Carita · 29th April 2005, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Kiai, I would love to hear you evidence. I am sure you understand that stating that there is evidence is not the same as actually presenting evidence. There may well have been unrecorded meteor strikes on Jawa that we are unaware of, but given the size of the place, the fact that very, very few meteorite actually strike the Earth (most burn up in the atmosphere), and that of those that do, most do not contain the proper pamor materials, it just doesn't seem likely that enough of this material coulds have existed at such an early time to allow for meteorite to become so crucial to keris making that every empu would be able to include even a little in every keris they made. I look forward to your evidence because quite frankly, i would like to believe you are correct.

I think that material evidence in kerisology is not always possible or desireable as a keris is not a material weapon rather it is an esoteric weapon. Alot of what we know about keris comes from legend. Then there is the traditional esoteric practises of Javanese artist which is still kept and taught to apprentices by some people in Java. In the education of the Java poet / artist there are several meditations such as 'nggrayang raga' and 'ngraga sukma' and movement meditations like 'gerak nurani'. These meditations expand the senses and would allow a heavenly-pamor collector gather pieces of meteorite smaller than chicken eggs.

Kerises older than the Prambanan keris are also claimed by the families that own them to be made of meteorite pamor. Works by Mpu Singkir, Mpu Pitrang, Mpu Supa Mandrangi and other great Mpu are believed to use meteorite in the pamor. When the Prambanan meteorite fell everyone knew exactly what to do with it it was to make pamor.

Some people interviewed by the late Bambang Harsrinuksmo while compiling his Ensiklopedi Keris also said that until the Great Depression meteorite was for sale in the markets of Solo, Madiun, Yogya, Palembang in Sumatra and so on. Not all the pamor on the market was Prambanan pamor but all pamor was more valuable than gold. However, if it will please you, I will say that before the Prambanan meteor there is no evidence of the use of meteor in Java keris.

Salam Keris

nechesh · 29th April 2005, 08:05 PM

No Kiai, it doesn't particularly please me that you have no real evidence for your statements. It was my sincere hope you did, for who among us would not want to believe that we might own a keris with meteoric pamor?

The difficulty that arises here is one of academic study. And no, it is not the "simple academic answer" that the keris was invented by the gods and brought to Jawa by Aji Saka. This is merely a legend. Myths, legends, stories and conjecture can help to point us in directions for our study, but real evidence is needed if we are to prove our case. I am not surprised to see that you have studied the late, great Harsrinuksmo. I am probably wasting my letters here, but the Harsrinuksmo's philosophy of keris is a relatively new one. This is not to say that it does not hold relative "truths", per se. But this system has not always been the way Javanese of viewed or used the keris. Elements of it perhaps, but not in total. This is not to say that it isn't "true" for you today. Joseph Cambell, the great compiler of comparative religion, once said that he never had a true mystical experience with the various religions he studied because he never invested himself completely enough in any one system of thought. Harsrinuksmo's writings are a system of thought on the keris and if one programs this system into the hard drive that is our brain it will undoubtably yield results in the use of the keris as a mystical tool. But i do believe that if we take certain "truths" of that system and examine them outside of the system itself that they will simply not hold up to the test. The same can probably be said for any of the worlds religions. Faith plays an important part in making these systems work. For you, the existence of meteoric pamor in your keris is an important symbolic part of your mystical system of the keris. But many of us on this forum are seeking facts, not faith. We follow logic, not dogma. So i ask that you please not be offended when some of us disagree with things you state that are for you a matter of faith. I would like to be able to accept your word for it, but i will continue to dig deeper.

Kiai Carita · 29th April 2005, 10:19 PM

[QUOTE=nechesh]No Kiai, it doesn't particularly please me that you have no real evidence for your statements. It was my sincere hope you did, for who among us would not want to believe that we might own a keris with meteoric pamor?

The difficulty that arises here is one of academic study. And no, it is not the "simple academic answer" that the keris was invented by the gods and brought to Jawa by Aji Saka. This is merely a legend. Myths, legends, stories and conjecture can help to point us in directions for our study, but real evidence is needed if we are to prove our case.

Is not the existence of 'nggrayang raga', 'ngraga sukma', and 'gerak nurani' ample evidence that a Mpu would be able to find rare meteorite on the ground? And what is a percentage value compared to all the bodies in the heavens?

There is a martial arts school in Yogya called Merpati Putih and one of their specialities is to be able to see colour and form blindfolded. It is only a step further to be able to find peices of meteorite. When the first Sultan of Yogyakarta was young he would often go to a deep river in the middle of the night and chuck his diamond ring in to the dark water. Then he would begin to dive to find it and he did every time because his sences were extra sensitive because of his spiritual and physical excercises. These excercises are documented in writing (i think in Serat Cebolek or Serat Cebolang) and quoted in the Javanese poet W.S Rendra's essay 'Latihan-Latihan Sri Sultan HB I di masa Remaja' (Gramedia, Mempertimbangkan Tradisi).

The Subud spiritual school is an international institution and they teach 'gerak nurani'. Why not be truly experimental and try out these excercises and see what you are able to do before you slag off the old Javanese Mpu as not being able to find meteorite for their pamor? I think that when we analyse the Java keris we need to incorporate some post-modernism and not slag off a living story as 'merely a legend'. The scientific study of the keris must move on from the racist (I am Dutch/white and so know more about the real you than you ignoramus inlander/native who eats rice every day) point of view and incorporate the views of the people who actually own the culture and the context of the keris.

Sorry Sir, I think that your scientific approach to the keris is merely legend of science, the type of science of the Colonial era where things are always what they seem and the native is always mistaken. I believe that the humanities have developed now and the 'objects' of study cannot be seen as merely objects any more if one expects to be taken as 'scientific'. Being scientific is only an other myth anyway! I would suggest that if you have a keris that comes from before the Prambanan meteorite it would have at least a bit of meteorite in it. If pamor was not from meteorite then the Dutch and the Solo and Yogya writers would have discussed the novelty of the Prambanan pamor in that it could be used to make a keris.

I also would assume that after the influx of European metals in Java the Mpu would be able to have a wider source of pamor material and would use smaller and smaller amounts of meteorite for the lesser kerises. The remnants of the Prambanan pamor is still there for all to see in the Surakarta Kraton but at least hundreds of keris have been made using the Prambanan pamor. Reason why? Most only have a smidgin of meteorite.

I suggest you Google Subud and find a school near you and practise 'gerak nurani' so as to be able to have an idea of the powers of the old Mpu.

Salam keris.

Rick · 29th April 2005, 10:36 PM

Most Honored ,
I enter this discussion as a member , not as a staff member .
I have a suggestion and please do not take insult from it I beg of you .
Rather than Nechesh investing possibly years learning the art of divination why not find someone to accept this million dollar challenge :

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

I assure you this is not a joke , it is a serious effort to discover if powers as you claim do indeed exist .

Most respectfully submitted .

Rick
EEWRS

11th February 2005, 11:36 PM	#6
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Great Thread! Your amazing Rick! That was a great thread. Kind of fun to watch the Ti learning curve, thought important and later on to fall apart as not true... I am still interested in learn more on how to identify pamor made with meteorite... it was a bit vague. Other than touch, are there any pictures that may be helpful? ASU has an Electron Micro Probe that will do the trick, but they will only test meteorites.

29th April 2005, 10:36 PM	#20
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Another Alternative Most Honored , I enter this discussion as a member , not as a staff member . I have a suggestion and please do not take insult from it I beg of you . Rather than Nechesh investing possibly years learning the art of divination why not find someone to accept this million dollar challenge : http://www.randi.org/research/index.html I assure you this is not a joke , it is a serious effort to discover if powers as you claim do indeed exist . Most respectfully submitted . Rick EEWRS

11th February 2005, 05:33 AM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry Wayne, but i'm afraid i have to disagree with you here. The keris would have been a special and unique weapon with or without the Prambanan meteorite, though certainly the possibility of pamor from the stars has increased that somewhat. But i think it is important that we dispell these meteorite myths somewhat. Yes, a certain amount of court pieces from the 19th and possibly early 20th century were made, but this is hardly the bulk or height of keris history. Still there are many folks out there who still believe that all keris were made this way. There are many keris, especially earlier ones that don't even use nickelous pamor, just various irons to create contrast in patterns. These keris are still special and unique.

11th February 2005, 04:04 PM	#2
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	nechesh, Don't be sorry, the fault is mine. I know that I seem to suggest that only meteorites make the Keris "special" but... I fully agree with you! It’s the pamor, and much, much more that makes the Keris so special. I was just referring to the one aspect that has been attached to the Keris... it's the pamor and meteorites that have separated the Keris from most weapons... which I believe is what started this thread. Even not knowing the association with meteorites, who can gaze upon a wondrous Keris blade and not desire one? (I know the "bug" bit me bad!)

11th February 2005, 04:54 PM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Forgive me this question of ignorant European - how we can recognize meteoric iron or nickel on the blade?

11th February 2005, 06:35 PM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Aye wolviex, there's the rub!

11th February 2005, 06:41 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	From the archives : http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html Maybe some questions are answered here .

18th February 2005, 04:10 PM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry Henk, it was not my intention to imply that Tammens claimed Groneman was told about meteoric pamor. This is just my logical assumption based on the fact that he was working with the epmus of the time when this pamor may have still been used and they, no doubt, still had a clear memory of the previous generation of empus who had been their teachers. I think it unlikely that since we don't seem to have a test today that can determine for sure if these forged metals are from celestial origins that they didn't have one in 1900 either. So what scientic test could Grneman have used to come up with such a finding. The word of the empus and perhaps seeing them actually working with meteoric pamor was probably enough evidence to the fact. And no Tom, the idea of meteoric pamor is not a confusion. There is plenty of evidence that the Prambanan fall was used for this purpose. The confusion came later when somehow it became legend that ALL keris were made of such metals. Okhba3, your information is very interesting. I would love to hear more evidence to this, since i am the eternal skeptic . It is, of course, completely counter to the research of Tammens, but since i have already taken a swipe at some of that research i am not beyond believing that he may have been mistaken on this as well. I was not aware of these new discoveries and look foward to finding out more.

13th February 2005, 05:39 AM	#10
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Recently the work of the Polish metalurgist Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski has come to my attention. He has done considerable work in the analysis of keris structure. It is my understanding that even if you were to destroy a piece of a keris for analysis you would not be able to determine extra-terrestial origin after the materials have gone through the forging and welding process. Does anyone else know of any reputatable researcher who has actually worked on this subject that has a different answer to this question? I find the concept of meteoric pamor to be very enticing like, i believe, most do. I certainly wouldn't mind owning a keris with such pamor. But i find the focus on this subject as relating to keris a bit troublesome. Why? So many reference books make mention of it, countless dealers lay claim to it in their keris. The facts as can best be sorted out is that meteoric pamor was used for a SELECT FEW keris beginning in the 19th century. So it was used for a relatively short period of time (100+yrs.) and even then it was far from the majority of keris being produced even in that century. It has done nothing to increase the artist level of keris making and though i can see why it might increase the spiritual value of a keris, this attribute of the blade did not begin nor end with the use of such a pamor material. I guess what i am driving at is that meteoric pamor is quite a bit over-valued as an aspect of keris study. It becomes a distraction of sorts. And unfortunately, unless it is a recently made blade that you had a part in the making of, or a court blade with considerable provenence (few and far between), one can never know for sure whether it's "star metal" or not.

13th February 2005, 11:10 AM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Wolviex wrote: Forgive me this question of ignorant European - how we can recognize meteoric iron or nickel on the blade? From the discussion it seems as if we can't be sure, but I did somewhere read that some could feel a prickle in the fingers when toutching meteoric iron. This does however not give any garantee as you can't prove that the blade is made of meteoric iron - besides I think that a strongly magbetic blade could/would give the same feeling. Jens

13th February 2005, 07:36 PM	#12
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	nechesh, Trace elements are a give away for cosmic origin... which is why chemical analysis is important. Yes... we can tell. I find it troubling to use feel as a way to determine... since these blades are older and are likely to have been etched many times, where does the pattern or surface profile from etching fit in to this approach? Is there no visually pattern reserved for this pamor? Jens... I'm with you, more than a bit confussed. I agree meteoritic pamor is not critical... but of historically importance and value.

13th February 2005, 08:39 PM	#13
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Wayne, i realize you are a scientist and when you refer to "yes...we can tell" i assume you are referring to the scientific community in general. I don't mean to challenge you on this point, but what are your experiences with metalurgy. I understand that you are a color chemist, which sounds really cool even if i don't know quite what you do, but does this qualify you to make this statement? Are you familar with Prof. Piaskowski's work? He has done years of study and compilation of data on this very subject and it is his belief, apparently, that you can not tell cosmic origin in keris metals that have been forged and welded. I know that scientists are apt to disagree, but until i hear research from another scientist who has actually tried to determine these factors with as many forged keris as Prof. Piaskowski has done i am inclined to lean towards his position on the matter, not being of the mind or abilities to do such research for myself.

13th February 2005, 09:24 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,587	I think the study of the use of meteoric metal from scientific perspective is fascinating, and the discussion here with those of you expert in keris and Indonesian weapons is excellent! While somewhat digressing from the scientific perspective, I am wondering if the references and descriptions applied to these blades in earlier narratives referring to 'meteoric steel' may have been intended aesthetically. It seems that in the glossaries of keris jargon there are terms that apply specifically to such blades. In "The Sword in Anglo Saxon England" by H.R.Ellis Davidson , N.Y. 1962, on p.22 the author notes, "...Forbes suggested that the damask patterns might have been inspired by meteorites, which are covered with a thin film of iron oxide and when forged at low temperatures produce a distant pattern". *"Metallurgy in Antiquity" R.J.Forbes, Leiden, 1950 While acknowledging that there were actually blades forged with this extra terrestrial material included with regular materials, I am wondering if possibly the term 'meteoric' may refer to a certain pattern or appearance in pamor. Concerning the empirical approach to examining these blades metallurgically, after being faithfully hooked on the television series C.S.I. and the compelling forensics dramas, I cannot imagine that extra terrestrial origins of certain components could not be discovered in the labratory!!! I sure wouldnt want to volunteer one of my prize weapons though!!! That is if I DID have one of these beautiful keris! Best regards, Jim

29th April 2005, 12:42 AM	#16
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Kiai, I would love to hear you evidence. I am sure you understand that stating that there is evidence is not the same as actually presenting evidence. There may well have been unrecorded meteor strikes on Jawa that we are unaware of, but given the size of the place, the fact that very, very few meteorite actually strike the Earth (most burn up in the atmosphere), and that of those that do, most do not contain the proper pamor materials, it just doesn't seem likely that enough of this material coulds have existed at such an early time to allow for meteorite to become so crucial to keris making that every empu would be able to include even a little in every keris they made. I look forward to your evidence because quite frankly, i would like to believe you are correct.

29th April 2005, 08:05 PM	#18
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	No Kiai, it doesn't particularly please me that you have no real evidence for your statements. It was my sincere hope you did, for who among us would not want to believe that we might own a keris with meteoric pamor? The difficulty that arises here is one of academic study. And no, it is not the "simple academic answer" that the keris was invented by the gods and brought to Jawa by Aji Saka. This is merely a legend. Myths, legends, stories and conjecture can help to point us in directions for our study, but real evidence is needed if we are to prove our case. I am not surprised to see that you have studied the late, great Harsrinuksmo. I am probably wasting my letters here, but the Harsrinuksmo's philosophy of keris is a relatively new one. This is not to say that it does not hold relative "truths", per se. But this system has not always been the way Javanese of viewed or used the keris. Elements of it perhaps, but not in total. This is not to say that it isn't "true" for you today. Joseph Cambell, the great compiler of comparative religion, once said that he never had a true mystical experience with the various religions he studied because he never invested himself completely enough in any one system of thought. Harsrinuksmo's writings are a system of thought on the keris and if one programs this system into the hard drive that is our brain it will undoubtably yield results in the use of the keris as a mystical tool. But i do believe that if we take certain "truths" of that system and examine them outside of the system itself that they will simply not hold up to the test. The same can probably be said for any of the worlds religions. Faith plays an important part in making these systems work. For you, the existence of meteoric pamor in your keris is an important symbolic part of your mystical system of the keris. But many of us on this forum are seeking facts, not faith. We follow logic, not dogma. So i ask that you please not be offended when some of us disagree with things you state that are for you a matter of faith. I would like to be able to accept your word for it, but i will continue to dig deeper.

29th April 2005, 10:19 PM	#19
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	[QUOTE=nechesh]No Kiai, it doesn't particularly please me that you have no real evidence for your statements. It was my sincere hope you did, for who among us would not want to believe that we might own a keris with meteoric pamor? The difficulty that arises here is one of academic study. And no, it is not the "simple academic answer" that the keris was invented by the gods and brought to Jawa by Aji Saka. This is merely a legend. Myths, legends, stories and conjecture can help to point us in directions for our study, but real evidence is needed if we are to prove our case. Is not the existence of 'nggrayang raga', 'ngraga sukma', and 'gerak nurani' ample evidence that a Mpu would be able to find rare meteorite on the ground? And what is a percentage value compared to all the bodies in the heavens? There is a martial arts school in Yogya called Merpati Putih and one of their specialities is to be able to see colour and form blindfolded. It is only a step further to be able to find peices of meteorite. When the first Sultan of Yogyakarta was young he would often go to a deep river in the middle of the night and chuck his diamond ring in to the dark water. Then he would begin to dive to find it and he did every time because his sences were extra sensitive because of his spiritual and physical excercises. These excercises are documented in writing (i think in Serat Cebolek or Serat Cebolang) and quoted in the Javanese poet W.S Rendra's essay 'Latihan-Latihan Sri Sultan HB I di masa Remaja' (Gramedia, Mempertimbangkan Tradisi). The Subud spiritual school is an international institution and they teach 'gerak nurani'. Why not be truly experimental and try out these excercises and see what you are able to do before you slag off the old Javanese Mpu as not being able to find meteorite for their pamor? I think that when we analyse the Java keris we need to incorporate some post-modernism and not slag off a living story as 'merely a legend'. The scientific study of the keris must move on from the racist (I am Dutch/white and so know more about the real you than you ignoramus inlander/native who eats rice every day) point of view and incorporate the views of the people who actually own the culture and the context of the keris. Sorry Sir, I think that your scientific approach to the keris is merely legend of science, the type of science of the Colonial era where things are always what they seem and the native is always mistaken. I believe that the humanities have developed now and the 'objects' of study cannot be seen as merely objects any more if one expects to be taken as 'scientific'. Being scientific is only an other myth anyway! I would suggest that if you have a keris that comes from before the Prambanan meteorite it would have at least a bit of meteorite in it. If pamor was not from meteorite then the Dutch and the Solo and Yogya writers would have discussed the novelty of the Prambanan pamor in that it could be used to make a keris. I also would assume that after the influx of European metals in Java the Mpu would be able to have a wider source of pamor material and would use smaller and smaller amounts of meteorite for the lesser kerises. The remnants of the Prambanan pamor is still there for all to see in the Surakarta Kraton but at least hundreds of keris have been made using the Prambanan pamor. Reason why? Most only have a smidgin of meteorite. I suggest you Google Subud and find a school near you and practise 'gerak nurani' so as to be able to have an idea of the powers of the old Mpu. Salam keris.