Moro shield

[Dajak]

Hi Bill I am collecting more than 30 years
have a lot off books that I am study
see a lot off weapons did visit a lot off museums
but that does not make me an expert.
But someone that can recognise weapons even it is an mandau an pakayun
or an moro kris or an dajak shield .
And that is where the forum is for if you not sure you can ask the forum members.
And not to get upsett if it is something different about what you think about
it is .
Even I make mistakes in buying weapons.

The book from the USA National museum Bulletin 137 from1926 may also be fine to get .

Regards, Ben

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi Bill I am collecting more than 30 years
have a lot off books that I am study
see a lot off weapons did visit a lot off museums
but that does not make me an expert.
But someone that can recognise weapons even it is an mandau an pakayun
or an moro kris or an dajak shield .
And that is where the forum is for if you not sure you can ask the forum members.
And not to get upsett if it is something different about what you think about
it is .
Even I make mistakes in buying weapons.

Regards, Ben

Ben,

I appreciate your calm comments and you are right about this Forum! This is why I always ask for comments.

As I said, it is fine with me if I post a piece and someone says it is something else. It may be! This is one of the ways I learn. I like learning. Making mistakes and learning from them is one of the ways we learn!

Comments from Forum members may be right and they may be wrong. The books may be right and they may be wrong. Even curators of Museums may be right and they may be wrong. The fun is in the interchange. Getting to know people. Talking openly and freely --- AND respecting other peoples' viewpoints.

I am offended when other people's viewpoints are not respected.

But on experts. For example I know a woman who grew up in Burkina Faso. She was well educated in the artifacts, the religions, the politics, the art, the history of Burkina Faso. She, to me is an expert in pieces from BF. She has multiple degrees and a well-known depth of knowledge about Burkina Faso. She is the Curator of African Art at a well-known Museum.

I saw a marvelous crocodile mask from Burkina Faso. I really liked it though it was very expensive. She looked at it for me and said it was one of the finest examples of their art she had seen. She said that the price was good. I bought it. It is about five feet long.

I showed her another Burkina Faso mask from another dealer. He wanted about 1/20th the cost of the crocodile mask. She looked at it and said it was recent, but a fair represntation of how this type of mask should look.

My first criteria is that I like something. If it is an expensive piece, I have people who know the field look at it and then decide if I want to commit the money.

This is how I use experts. And I check out the "experts" before I consider them worth trusting. Through my busiiness contacts I can check credentials on almost anyone.

One of the great frustrations in email communication is that it is easy to misunderstand the other person. The majority of our human interpersonal communications is body language, tonality and tempo. The actual words make up less than 10% of our communication and that 10% is all we have here in emails. Well maybe capital letters and smilies!

Add to the above, there are a lot of people here from other countries for whom English is not their usual language of communication. I greatly respect these people for coming here and sharing. I would not even try to go to one of their Forums and try to post in their language.

The key word to me is "respect."

While I love the pieces we collect on this Forum, well most of them, the important thing to me is the people here. through this Forum I am developing relationships all over the world.

Yourself for example. You have been collecting 30 years! This is marvelous! I will make it a priority to come visit you someday. I also greatly value your respectful manner.

I have seen some of your pieces and, personally, I would consider you an expert, Ben. You really know your area. You have some great pieces! You have spent the time to learn. That is obvious even to a neophyte like me! If I had a chance to buy a pakayun, I might ask your opinion.

I will send you a private email to discuss another issue.

Thanking you for your consideration in these matters,

Bill

[David]

This is an interesting discussion. What bothers me about it is that it seems there is some disagreement as to the origins of Bill's shield, but no one is really coming out and saying so. It would be wonderful if those forumites, "expert" or nor, who think this is something other than a Moro shield come out and say so and perhaps say why and what they think it might be. From the perspective of someone who knows nothing about this either way this skirting around the question only adds to my confusion. It does seem from the looks of your shield Bill that it is an authentic "something" If you guys don't think it's Moro, what do you think it is? Come on, Bill's not gonna bite ya.
Lew, i assume you are suggesting it might be African?

[Dajak]

It is in the book by prestel listed as Vietnamese but maybe it is African
I never see it listed as moro.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Dajak

It is in the book by prestel listed as Vietnamese but maybe it is African
I never see it listed as moro.

Could be Vietnamese.

I would like ot hear from some of the other people also. It sure looks and feels old. I think that any old rattan sheild is rare because rattan does not hold up that well and they were really undervalued for many years.

It is well made and in perfect condition. The seller is a very well known and prestigious dealer who got it from a collector who has been collecting things like this for over 30 years.

They called it "Moro." Whatever! It will look good hanging on my Moro armor!

Really a round rattan sheild without markings, emblematic bosses, special handles, any distinguishing marks, may be hard to place.

Any of the Moro people who want to respond?

[Tim Simmons]

I think it is safe to say it is not African. The trouble with books of the last century, and therefore many collectors and dealers is that some things are seen and catalogued in an absolutist manner. This is very noticeable with African artifacts. When in reality there was a flux between borders, styles and some cultural influences. Many an objects form may be governed by wealth and local materials. Looking at this area of SE Asia, I would not at all be surprised if this shield form, with some local differences did not cover thousands of miles N,S,W and E.

Bill, what a fabulous glimpse at the depth of your collection. I like that adze.

[David]

Well, when i look at the eBay example that Lew linked, while the form is similar the style of weaving appears to be a very different technique. Of course, this eBay example might not be African either for all i know.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I think it is safe to say it is not African. The trouble with books of the last century, and therefore many collectors and dealers is that some things are seen and catalogued in an absolutist manner. This is very noticeable with African artifacts. When in reality there was a flux between borders, styles and some cultural influences. Many an objects form may be governed by wealth and local materials. Looking at this area of SE Asia, I would not at all be surprised if this shield form, with some local differences did not cover thousands of miles N,S,W and E.

Bill, what a fabulous glimpse at the depth of your collection. I like that adze.

Tim, Thank you for the compliment. The adz is a very special piece. It has been in a french collection for about a hundred years. Just got it a few months ago. The same curator who reccomended the crocodile mask said that I had to get the adz also.

The piece with breasts is a Theyyam body mask/ armor, used in trance rituals in Kerala / Malabar. Bet they are really busy with Goddess festivals about now!