Tricky Bugis Keris

Marcokeris · 13th October 2006, 12:27 PM

Nice old keris! But a puzzle to guess from where it comes.
Surely the selut is from Sumatra.
The hilt (nice the decoration) 90% would be from kalimantan (...but also, maybe, from Malaysia?) .

Sarong and silver pendok would be from Sulawesi .
About the blade i don't understand where it comes ( Sumatra?). Surely a good smith made nice dapur and nice pamor (tritik or untu walang)
....(sorry for my english)

VVV · 13th October 2006, 03:46 PM

Thanks Marcokeris for your comments (and votes below)!

On the selut it looks a bit like Palembang but it is more compressed. Like a mix of Bugis and Palembang maybe?

On the blade, with your vote, so far there are 4 - 1 in votes for Sumatra (vs Sulawesi).

On the sheath it's 3 - 1 - 1 in votes for Sulawesi (vs Sumatra and Malaysia).

The hilt is 4 - 1 for Kalimantan (vs Sulawesi).

Michael

PS Two of the other 3 "voters" are active members of this forum.
Please share your comments on why.

David · 13th October 2006, 04:40 PM

Hi Michael. I have been sitting back waiting for more knowledgable members than me to comment on this keris. I would think that Kai Wee or Shahrial would have a word or two on this one. I feel a bit out of my territory with keris outside the Jawa/Bali/Madura circle, but i still want and need to know so much more.

That said i would certainly venture to say this keris is a mixed bag. I am not sure it is always fair to say such combinations are "dealer mixes". Sometimes a blade legitimately moves from one region to another and gets re-dressed appropriately for that region. Sometimes a blade from somewher like Jawa will be imported into another area of Indonesia. Not saying this isn't a "dealer's mix", just can't tell.
On the blade i would vote for Sumatra and the sheath, Sulawesi, so i guess i am with the majority here. I don't know much about this hilt so i couldn't say.

A. G. Maisey · 15th October 2006, 02:57 AM

Yes, its a mix. How, when, where, why , we can only guess.

The blade is an older Madurese one.

Note the angle of the gandik, as if it wants to fall into the body of the keris.

Note the whispy style of the kembang kacang.

Look carefully at the greneng, especially the ron dha.Note that this blade is comparatively recent and has very little evidence of erosion. Ever seen a Javanese greneng or ron dha like this? Of course not!

Look at the distance from the luk nearest the point to point itself. One of the indicators of a Madurese keris is that it has a long point.

Look at the pamor:- relatively complex, involving both surface manipulation and a forge manipulation. The core will be found to be hard steel, where it has been heat treated. Where else will you find this type of material and workmanship?

This is a Madura blade.

In attempting to identify origin of a blade you should first disregard the dress in which it is found, and then look at each feature of the blade, do not just look at the overall blade. Pay close attention to the way in which the greneng, especially the ron dha , is cut. Look at the detail in the kembang kacang----how long is it? rate of taper? substantial? flimsy?

In the case of this blade, all these details only confirm the immediate impression:- you see a gandik like that, and it is almost certain that you are looking at an older Madura piece.

BluErf · 15th October 2006, 04:15 AM

May I present a number of examples of Sumatran Bugis-influenced blades. 2 of them were collected from Sumatra, in wretched condition, dressed in their original fitted sheaths. One was purchased from a US seller, with no sheath, but a Sumatra hilt. The others were purchased from Artzi, and the sheaths were old and fitted perfectly with the blade.

The "gandik falling into the blade" feature is very common amongst Sumatran Bugis blades, and in fact, not unusual in Sulawesi kerises as well, though I don't have examples of those in my collection. Such features can also be found in Peninsular pieces.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

These blades have a basic triangular shape at the base of the blade, and can have rather long drawn kembang kacang. The greneng and janggut are of the variety that sticks out of the blade's profile, and can run from the blade to the ganja's aring side. The greneng's form is in line with what I have seen on Sumatran blades.

The pamor on the blade is not that uncommon in the realm of Bugis/Malay blades. The name is pamor "gigi yul", or shark's teeth. The central sader saleh pamor line is also common. I have 3 Bugis blades with such pamor:

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

The long distance of the last luk to the tip is also a common feature in Sumatran Bugis blades, and even in Malay blades influenced by Bugis styles.

A further point to make is that the blade is ganja iras. Though not a smoking-gun argument to make, ganja iras blades are more common on Sumatra than anywhere else.

So it may not be so certain that this is a Madurese blade.

When I first saw this keris, the mixture of features threw me off. I could not immediately (as a matter of fact, still am unable to right now) place the origin of the keris. I thought the hilt could be from Sulawesi, but since Sulawesi is near to Kalimantan, it could have easily jumped from one island to the next. I have seen a similar hilt on a big badek, or shd I say "Kawali" from Sulawesi. The pendoko struck me as S. Sumatran at first, but the deeper than usual bowl seemed to suggest otherwise. The sheath is unusual in form, with a very exaggerated twin daun peaks. I don't know where this style comes from, especially with the proportionately lanky batang.

That's why I suggested to Michael that he should post it on the forum for opinions.

Alam Shah · 15th October 2006, 05:29 AM

I agree with Kai Wee, the blade might not be a Maduran blade.

and also about the "gandik falling into the blade" feature is common amongst Sumatran Bugis blades, Sulawesi kerises, as well as Peninsular pieces.

I do agree that, trying to determine the blade origin, we'll have to ignore the dress, (for the time being) and concentrate on the blade's features.

The blade, might be of Sumatra/Kalimantan origin. Looking at the blade's features... the ganja iras, the ricikans, the greneng-works and the pamor. Probably an adaptation of different influences, made for a Bugis.

The blade, does have some resemblance to Keris Kapak Cina.

In West Kalimantan, after the fall of the Majapahit kingdom, there were a few kingdoms which took shape. Examples are the Pontianak and Sambas Sultanate. Not much is known on the West Kalimantan hilt form. In Banjabaru and Banjarmasin, these places are already well-known for manufacturing exceptional hilt works. In general, it uses the same form as the Malays and vice-versa. However, hilts do get inter-changed within other communities in the Malay Archipelago. As we know, the bugis most commonly ply the Southern Borneo areas all the way to Sumatra and Malaysian Peninsular.

For the hilt type, I've seen it before (at Adni's shop) on a kris and a badek (kawali or Badi Guru), as well.

The hilt cup (pendongkok), does looks like a variation from a Palembang style, a variation from Kai Wee's example (in his gallery).

The sheath, a mix between a Sari-Bulan and a Tengah form. I've not seen this form before.

These are just my thoughts, I'm still confused about the overall ensemble, though...

VVV · 15th October 2006, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hi Michael. I have been sitting back waiting for more knowledgable members than me to comment on this keris. I would think that Kai Wee or Shahrial would have a word or two on this one.

Thanks all for your comments,

Of course I asked Kai Wee and Shahrial about the Keris before posting it here. But I was also waiting for them to comment it on the forum as we decided to continue the discussion here.
Somehow I am attracted to unusual Keris, which of course means that I now and then maybe acquire a Keris that is a mix for different reasons.
But it's also an interesting learning experience discussing it with more experienced collectors.
My knowledge on how to place Keris blades is minimal so I am happy to read the comments of those who do and try to learn more about it

Michael

David · 15th October 2006, 07:29 PM

Personally i don't see any Bugis influence in this blade. And the execution of the pamor seems very different from the Bugis/Malay examples shown even if the basic pamor type is the same. I don't think this blade was created by a Bugis smith.

A. G. Maisey · 15th October 2006, 11:50 PM

Gentlemen, I am not very often giving to making positive statements in respect of the origin of keris blades.

When we say that something is of one classification of blade or another, what we are doing is applying the Javanese tangguh system which relies on a number of indicators , many of which can only be applied with the blade in one`s hand. Because of this I am more often than not very hesitant to be at all positive about the origin of a blade, based upon what I can see in a picture.

Some blades can be very obvious, such as a big , smooth finish Balinese blade. Almost anybody can recognise these with just a passing glance. Similar with the classic straight Bugis blade---a glance as you walk past it, you know instantly what it is. For a person with extensive experience in handling Javanese/Madurese blades, recognition of a classic older Madurese blade is just as simple.

My teacher of the tangguh system was Empu Suparman Supowijaya, who was acknowledged as one of, if not the most knowledgeable man in Surakarta , which essentially means in Jawa, and thus the world, on the subject of tangguh. I studied under his tutelage for more than twelve years, and it took me about ten of those years to begin to understand how to apply the indicators used in making a classification of a blade. During that ten years I would have handled a minimum of at least 20,000 keris blades. In the years prior to this, and following my ten year "apprenticeship" I also handled about 2000 keris blades during each year. At the present time I am reasonably confident that the tangguh that I give a blade will be accepted by the majority of people in Central Jawa who do understand tangguh, as a reasonable classification of a blade. I say " majority of people", because decison on a tangguh is essentially a matter of applying certain standards to the indicators and forming an opinion which can be supported by reasoned argument against the standard of the accepted indicators. There will usually be a few people who do not agree.

In respect of the blade under discussion I have varied from my usual reluctance to give a positive tangguh.

Why have I done this?

The answer is simple:- I am absolutely positive that this blade conforms in all material respects to the indicators which will give it a tangguh of Madura.

However, as I have already pointed out, this is an opinion, and in this case that opinion is based upon what I can see in a photograph.I acknowledge the right of anybody at all to disagree with me, however, my decision in this matter is firm, and I stand by it.

Alam Shah · 16th October 2006, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The answer is simple:- I am absolutely positive that this blade conforms in all material respects to the indicators which will give it a tangguh of Madura.

However, as I have already pointed out, this is an opinion, and in this case that opinion is based upon what I can see in a photograph.I acknowledge the right of anybody at all to disagree with me, however, my decision in this matter is firm, and I stand by it.

Hi Alan, thank you for applying your vast experience and knowledge to this piece. Unlike yourself, I'm just an avid collector with very little experience. Pardon me for my apparent lack of knowledge.

But could the blade be Kalimantan made?

Could it be made by a Maduran empu/pande who had migrated to elsewhere, say South Kalimantan given the close proximity from Madura to Kalimantan?

Alam Shah · 16th October 2006, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Personally i don't see any Bugis influence in this blade. And the execution of the pamor seems very different from the Bugis/Malay examples shown even if the basic pamor type is the same. I don't think this blade was created by a Bugis smith.

Hi David,
I'm not implying that the keris blade is made by a Bugis empu. All I'm saying that it might be made for a Bugis, considering the fittings(?). And the form is not a typical blade, hence the difficulty in placing the origin. Btw, what influence did you see?

Alam Shah · 16th October 2006, 02:27 AM

Hi all,

Below is an example of a blade which was acquired in Borneo (Kalimantan) by the previous owner (blade only). Now in the possession of our forumite, John.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/albur05/Blade1.jpg
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/albur05/Blade.jpg

Notice the similarities in the greneng-work.
The pamor is also similar, except that John's piece does have finer worksmanship, imo.

Let's discuss...

To Michael,
Can we have a picture of your keris's pesi, please.

David · 16th October 2006, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi David,
I'm not implying that the keris blade is made by a Bugis empu. All I'm saying that it might be made for a Bugis, considering the fittings(?). And the form is not a typical blade, hence the difficulty in placing the origin. Btw, what influence did you see?

Well, like you Shahrial, i am no more than an avid collector and don't have anywhere near the experience that Alan has with keris. My first impression of this blade was, frankly, somewhat influenced by the dress.

Since it doesn't look Bugis inluenced to me i thought that it might be Sumatran made under the influence of Javanese keris style. But i do see many of Alan's points. especially about the slope of the gandik. It is not just a matter of the kembang kecang recessing into the gandik, which is indeed common on many Bugis pieces. It is the actual slope of the entire gandik area. If you compare Michael"s example with John's that you most recently linked to you might be able to see what i mean. While this two keris bear an overall resemblance to each other i think that on a point by point basis there are vast differences and that the different origins come clear. If i were a betting man i think i would put my money on Alan's assessment of Michael's keris.

13th October 2006, 03:46 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Marcokeris for your comments (and votes below)! On the selut it looks a bit like Palembang but it is more compressed. Like a mix of Bugis and Palembang maybe? On the blade, with your vote, so far there are 4 - 1 in votes for Sumatra (vs Sulawesi). On the sheath it's 3 - 1 - 1 in votes for Sulawesi (vs Sumatra and Malaysia). The hilt is 4 - 1 for Kalimantan (vs Sulawesi). Michael PS Two of the other 3 "voters" are active members of this forum. Please share your comments on why. Last edited by VVV; 13th October 2006 at 04:14 PM. Reason: Added PS

15th October 2006, 04:15 AM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	May I present a number of examples of Sumatran Bugis-influenced blades. 2 of them were collected from Sumatra, in wretched condition, dressed in their original fitted sheaths. One was purchased from a US seller, with no sheath, but a Sumatra hilt. The others were purchased from Artzi, and the sheaths were old and fitted perfectly with the blade. The "gandik falling into the blade" feature is very common amongst Sumatran Bugis blades, and in fact, not unusual in Sulawesi kerises as well, though I don't have examples of those in my collection. Such features can also be found in Peninsular pieces. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php These blades have a basic triangular shape at the base of the blade, and can have rather long drawn kembang kacang. The greneng and janggut are of the variety that sticks out of the blade's profile, and can run from the blade to the ganja's aring side. The greneng's form is in line with what I have seen on Sumatran blades. The pamor on the blade is not that uncommon in the realm of Bugis/Malay blades. The name is pamor "gigi yul", or shark's teeth. The central sader saleh pamor line is also common. I have 3 Bugis blades with such pamor: http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php The long distance of the last luk to the tip is also a common feature in Sumatran Bugis blades, and even in Malay blades influenced by Bugis styles. A further point to make is that the blade is ganja iras. Though not a smoking-gun argument to make, ganja iras blades are more common on Sumatra than anywhere else. So it may not be so certain that this is a Madurese blade. When I first saw this keris, the mixture of features threw me off. I could not immediately (as a matter of fact, still am unable to right now) place the origin of the keris. I thought the hilt could be from Sulawesi, but since Sulawesi is near to Kalimantan, it could have easily jumped from one island to the next. I have seen a similar hilt on a big badek, or shd I say "Kawali" from Sulawesi. The pendoko struck me as S. Sumatran at first, but the deeper than usual bowl seemed to suggest otherwise. The sheath is unusual in form, with a very exaggerated twin daun peaks. I don't know where this style comes from, especially with the proportionately lanky batang. That's why I suggested to Michael that he should post it on the forum for opinions. Attached Images

15th October 2006, 05:29 AM	#6
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	A mixed origin keris... I agree with Kai Wee, the blade might not be a Maduran blade. and also about the "gandik falling into the blade" feature is common amongst Sumatran Bugis blades, Sulawesi kerises, as well as Peninsular pieces. I do agree that, trying to determine the blade origin, we'll have to ignore the dress, (for the time being) and concentrate on the blade's features. The blade, might be of Sumatra/Kalimantan origin. Looking at the blade's features... the ganja iras, the ricikans, the greneng-works and the pamor. Probably an adaptation of different influences, made for a Bugis. The blade, does have some resemblance to Keris Kapak Cina. In West Kalimantan, after the fall of the Majapahit kingdom, there were a few kingdoms which took shape. Examples are the Pontianak and Sambas Sultanate. Not much is known on the West Kalimantan hilt form. In Banjabaru and Banjarmasin, these places are already well-known for manufacturing exceptional hilt works. In general, it uses the same form as the Malays and vice-versa. However, hilts do get inter-changed within other communities in the Malay Archipelago. As we know, the bugis most commonly ply the Southern Borneo areas all the way to Sumatra and Malaysian Peninsular. For the hilt type, I've seen it before (at Adni's shop) on a kris and a badek (kawali or Badi Guru), as well. The hilt cup (pendongkok), does looks like a variation from a Palembang style, a variation from Kai Wee's example (in his gallery). The sheath, a mix between a Sari-Bulan and a Tengah form. I've not seen this form before. These are just my thoughts, I'm still confused about the overall ensemble, though... Last edited by Alam Shah; 16th October 2006 at 01:47 AM. Reason: sentence correction.

16th October 2006, 02:27 AM	#12
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	For comparison... Hi all, Below is an example of a blade which was acquired in Borneo (Kalimantan) by the previous owner (blade only). Now in the possession of our forumite, John. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/albur05/Blade1.jpg http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/albur05/Blade.jpg Notice the similarities in the greneng-work. The pamor is also similar, except that John's piece does have finer worksmanship, imo. Let's discuss... To Michael, Can we have a picture of your keris's pesi, please. Last edited by Alam Shah; 16th October 2006 at 02:38 AM.

13th October 2006, 12:27 PM	#1
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Nice old keris! But a puzzle to guess from where it comes. Surely the selut is from Sumatra. The hilt (nice the decoration) 90% would be from kalimantan (...but also, maybe, from Malaysia?) . Sarong and silver pendok would be from Sulawesi . About the blade i don't understand where it comes ( Sumatra?). Surely a good smith made nice dapur and nice pamor (tritik or untu walang) ....(sorry for my english)

13th October 2006, 04:40 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Hi Michael. I have been sitting back waiting for more knowledgable members than me to comment on this keris. I would think that Kai Wee or Shahrial would have a word or two on this one. I feel a bit out of my territory with keris outside the Jawa/Bali/Madura circle, but i still want and need to know so much more. That said i would certainly venture to say this keris is a mixed bag. I am not sure it is always fair to say such combinations are "dealer mixes". Sometimes a blade legitimately moves from one region to another and gets re-dressed appropriately for that region. Sometimes a blade from somewher like Jawa will be imported into another area of Indonesia. Not saying this isn't a "dealer's mix", just can't tell. On the blade i would vote for Sumatra and the sheath, Sulawesi, so i guess i am with the majority here. I don't know much about this hilt so i couldn't say.

15th October 2006, 02:57 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Yes, its a mix. How, when, where, why , we can only guess. The blade is an older Madurese one. Note the angle of the gandik, as if it wants to fall into the body of the keris. Note the whispy style of the kembang kacang. Look carefully at the greneng, especially the ron dha.Note that this blade is comparatively recent and has very little evidence of erosion. Ever seen a Javanese greneng or ron dha like this? Of course not! Look at the distance from the luk nearest the point to point itself. One of the indicators of a Madurese keris is that it has a long point. Look at the pamor:- relatively complex, involving both surface manipulation and a forge manipulation. The core will be found to be hard steel, where it has been heat treated. Where else will you find this type of material and workmanship? This is a Madura blade. In attempting to identify origin of a blade you should first disregard the dress in which it is found, and then look at each feature of the blade, do not just look at the overall blade. Pay close attention to the way in which the greneng, especially the ron dha , is cut. Look at the detail in the kembang kacang----how long is it? rate of taper? substantial? flimsy? In the case of this blade, all these details only confirm the immediate impression:- you see a gandik like that, and it is almost certain that you are looking at an older Madura piece.

15th October 2006, 07:29 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Personally i don't see any Bugis influence in this blade. And the execution of the pamor seems very different from the Bugis/Malay examples shown even if the basic pamor type is the same. I don't think this blade was created by a Bugis smith.

15th October 2006, 11:50 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Gentlemen, I am not very often giving to making positive statements in respect of the origin of keris blades. When we say that something is of one classification of blade or another, what we are doing is applying the Javanese tangguh system which relies on a number of indicators , many of which can only be applied with the blade in one`s hand. Because of this I am more often than not very hesitant to be at all positive about the origin of a blade, based upon what I can see in a picture. Some blades can be very obvious, such as a big , smooth finish Balinese blade. Almost anybody can recognise these with just a passing glance. Similar with the classic straight Bugis blade---a glance as you walk past it, you know instantly what it is. For a person with extensive experience in handling Javanese/Madurese blades, recognition of a classic older Madurese blade is just as simple. My teacher of the tangguh system was Empu Suparman Supowijaya, who was acknowledged as one of, if not the most knowledgeable man in Surakarta , which essentially means in Jawa, and thus the world, on the subject of tangguh. I studied under his tutelage for more than twelve years, and it took me about ten of those years to begin to understand how to apply the indicators used in making a classification of a blade. During that ten years I would have handled a minimum of at least 20,000 keris blades. In the years prior to this, and following my ten year "apprenticeship" I also handled about 2000 keris blades during each year. At the present time I am reasonably confident that the tangguh that I give a blade will be accepted by the majority of people in Central Jawa who do understand tangguh, as a reasonable classification of a blade. I say " majority of people", because decison on a tangguh is essentially a matter of applying certain standards to the indicators and forming an opinion which can be supported by reasoned argument against the standard of the accepted indicators. There will usually be a few people who do not agree. In respect of the blade under discussion I have varied from my usual reluctance to give a positive tangguh. Why have I done this? The answer is simple:- I am absolutely positive that this blade conforms in all material respects to the indicators which will give it a tangguh of Madura. However, as I have already pointed out, this is an opinion, and in this case that opinion is based upon what I can see in a photograph.I acknowledge the right of anybody at all to disagree with me, however, my decision in this matter is firm, and I stand by it.