New book: Arms and Armor from Iran

Andrew · 24th September 2006, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsubame1

Now, is everybody able to discuss the *contents* of the book instead of
his writer or history of Iran ?

It was my understanding the book has an extensive amount of historical content. Am I incorrect? I don't have my copy yet, so I really don't know. If there is no historical content then I agree the discussion of Manouchehr's historical perspective is off-topic and I will prevent it from proceeding any further. Otherwise, I will simply continue to insist the discussion continue in a civil manner.

Quote:

But he's not in this forum and will never join, so mine are worthless words.

I don't think your words are worthless at all. Why would his refusal to join our conversation make them so?

Quote:

And, let's say, there are enough worthless words in the air these days...

Frankly, this is cryptic and unecessary.

Rivkin · 24th September 2006, 04:35 AM

Gentlemen,

It is no secret that there are two forums and there is some friction between the two. I am not going to blame either side for this, in fact I believe it has everything to do with the orientation of the forums (swordforum - swordmakers, reenactors and martial artists, vikingsword - more of a collector's crowd). True, some of my words, especially those in a private correspondance with vikingsword members, were harsh, and I apologized before the people whom I believe to hurt undeservingly; it is also true that in the past on swordforum I was treated with vile insults, and even viler ones were mailed to me through pms.

I propose we do not lament the horrible facts of criticism - if my words disgust you, so should have been the words about Tirri, me and others on swordforum. Instead, we should agree to disagree, may be tone down our words a notch and realize that even though we may dislike each other's opinions, there is no problem at all. When we discussed Tirri I said myself that having a published book is better than having none at all, and Manoucher's book is probably going to be the Book, whatever errors or biases might be in it. We all have our ideas and ideology - my militant atheism, islam of another person or zionism of someone else can all be reflected in our work - this does not mean we should stop the presses, it means that we should be free to openly discuss and critique them. Yes it can get unpleasant, but what a good argument among friends.
And finally there are two reasons for me voicing my criticism - first I did so in my private messages, and I believe that I should tell to many what I tell to one.Another one is that while I have disagreed with Manoucher's posts and that of his reviewers and co-members at CAIS I have found no one on this or other forums offering an alternative opinion. I am not trying to persuade anyone, I am trying to show the alternative. I believe it is actually better for me to do so before the reading (which I am looking forward to), because it is not a twisting of his words or nit-picking on his creation, it is a statement of two completely different approaches to the study of iranian military, history and culture.

Finally, congratulations to Manoucher on the publication; I understand the whole enormous pain of bringing such a work to life, and I am happy that it is out there.
However, in my personal experience I learned more from criticism of my work than from its praise, even though it was unpleasant; I don't think that the only reaction one should expect on any published work is a madly happiness and stories about old men .... Ok, here the advice to tone it down a notch comes in handy

.

Andrew · 24th September 2006, 05:19 AM

Kirill, your words don't disgust me, nor am I suggesting there be no criticism of the book. But your suggestion to "turn it down a notch" echos my request.

tsubame1 · 24th September 2006, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I don't think your words are worthless at all. Why would his refusal to join our conversation make them so?

Don't take me wrong. He's not joing in ANY forum because he's old an busy,
not because of is EAAF or SFI or anything else.
Being well into the '70 and still working (for passion) gives you little chance to chat or to use internet other then for E-mails and a few researches...

tsubame1 · 24th September 2006, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

It was my understanding the book has an extensive amount of historical content.

Qarachuri is well historically described there, according to the one that have both my copy and enough knowledge to say this.

Gt Obach · 24th September 2006, 02:01 PM

thank you

a good review of the work is not a bad thing.. .. as i believe that writing a book is a growth experience...

critical review of the content is beneficial..... everything published should stand up to scrutiny.... but there can be a point where some criticism can step abit over the line and some colorful words can hurt feelings.. ..

i know that some effective reviews will come from this forum.. as there are some very sharp minds here !

generally.. i try not to post any negative commentary... and it was very hard for me to write those words last night.. .. ... no harm was meant

Greg

Ian · 24th September 2006, 02:16 PM

Guys:

I note the call by B.I. and others to get back to the contents of this book and to provide a useful critique. While I understand there are related issues, feelings seem to have been vented on both sides, and it is time to move on.

The author and his editors deserve a fair and open appraisal. I'm sure there will be differences of opinion. Let's stay away from personalities and focus on the weapons.

Ian.

ariel · 24th September 2006, 04:09 PM

Gentlemen,
I would like it to be abundantly clear that my last post was referring NOT to the book my Mr. Khorasani but to the preface written by Prof. Farroukh and to his very idiosyncratic view of Persian history.
The book itself was eagerly anticipated by the "sword" community. There is a big void in our understanding of Persian arms and armor and Mr. Khorasani spent inordinate amount of time and effort to fill it. For that, he has to be applauded. Personally, my hat is off to him.
Ultimately, any book (just like any material or intellectual work) has to be judged on its own merits and by strictly objective criteria: originality, veracity of information, soundness of discussion and conclusions, style, quality of illustrations etc. Sound critique of these and similar points is not only legitimate but highly desirable as it clarifies the issues and ultimately enhances our understanding of the subject.
As this book slowly but surely finds its way to the readers, I expect to see reviews, both positive and negative. From my personal experience as a former and current Editor and/or member of the Editorial Boards of 8 academic journals and as a reviewer for more than 30, I can suggest some guidelines universally employed in the academic community.
Since this book deals equally with the historical context, aesthetic values, technical issues etc, and also provides a photographic account of the items from the sources we would never see otherwise, all of the above areas should be open for discussion.The styles of the reviews will vary and it is to be expected , but the common denominators of a professional review are:

objectivity
knowledge of the field (supported by a reference, if needed)
addressing salient points
avoidance of critique of the points not in evidence
avoidance of ad hominem remarks.

Importantly, all affiliations with the book (editorial, promotional, financial etc) should be disclosed by the reviewer.

Every book addressing a subject of importance deserves to be reviewed and critiqued, with egos stroked and feathers ruffled in the process. The only way to avoid it is not to publish at all, and the only thing worse than a negative review is an indifferent silence.
Again, thanks to Mr. Khorasani for publishing this book.

24th September 2006, 02:16 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,399	The book please gentlemen ... Guys: I note the call by B.I. and others to get back to the contents of this book and to provide a useful critique. While I understand there are related issues, feelings seem to have been vented on both sides, and it is time to move on. The author and his editors deserve a fair and open appraisal. I'm sure there will be differences of opinion. Let's stay away from personalities and focus on the weapons. Ian.

24th September 2006, 04:35 AM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Gentlemen, It is no secret that there are two forums and there is some friction between the two. I am not going to blame either side for this, in fact I believe it has everything to do with the orientation of the forums (swordforum - swordmakers, reenactors and martial artists, vikingsword - more of a collector's crowd). True, some of my words, especially those in a private correspondance with vikingsword members, were harsh, and I apologized before the people whom I believe to hurt undeservingly; it is also true that in the past on swordforum I was treated with vile insults, and even viler ones were mailed to me through pms. I propose we do not lament the horrible facts of criticism - if my words disgust you, so should have been the words about Tirri, me and others on swordforum. Instead, we should agree to disagree, may be tone down our words a notch and realize that even though we may dislike each other's opinions, there is no problem at all. When we discussed Tirri I said myself that having a published book is better than having none at all, and Manoucher's book is probably going to be the Book, whatever errors or biases might be in it. We all have our ideas and ideology - my militant atheism, islam of another person or zionism of someone else can all be reflected in our work - this does not mean we should stop the presses, it means that we should be free to openly discuss and critique them. Yes it can get unpleasant, but what a good argument among friends. And finally there are two reasons for me voicing my criticism - first I did so in my private messages, and I believe that I should tell to many what I tell to one.Another one is that while I have disagreed with Manoucher's posts and that of his reviewers and co-members at CAIS I have found no one on this or other forums offering an alternative opinion. I am not trying to persuade anyone, I am trying to show the alternative. I believe it is actually better for me to do so before the reading (which I am looking forward to), because it is not a twisting of his words or nit-picking on his creation, it is a statement of two completely different approaches to the study of iranian military, history and culture. Finally, congratulations to Manoucher on the publication; I understand the whole enormous pain of bringing such a work to life, and I am happy that it is out there. However, in my personal experience I learned more from criticism of my work than from its praise, even though it was unpleasant; I don't think that the only reaction one should expect on any published work is a madly happiness and stories about old men .... Ok, here the advice to tone it down a notch comes in handy .

24th September 2006, 05:19 AM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Kirill, your words don't disgust me, nor am I suggesting there be no criticism of the book. But your suggestion to "turn it down a notch" echos my request.

24th September 2006, 02:01 PM	#6
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	thank you a good review of the work is not a bad thing.. .. as i believe that writing a book is a growth experience... critical review of the content is beneficial..... everything published should stand up to scrutiny.... but there can be a point where some criticism can step abit over the line and some colorful words can hurt feelings.. .. i know that some effective reviews will come from this forum.. as there are some very sharp minds here ! generally.. i try not to post any negative commentary... and it was very hard for me to write those words last night.. .. ... no harm was meant Greg

24th September 2006, 04:09 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gentlemen, I would like it to be abundantly clear that my last post was referring NOT to the book my Mr. Khorasani but to the preface written by Prof. Farroukh and to his very idiosyncratic view of Persian history. The book itself was eagerly anticipated by the "sword" community. There is a big void in our understanding of Persian arms and armor and Mr. Khorasani spent inordinate amount of time and effort to fill it. For that, he has to be applauded. Personally, my hat is off to him. Ultimately, any book (just like any material or intellectual work) has to be judged on its own merits and by strictly objective criteria: originality, veracity of information, soundness of discussion and conclusions, style, quality of illustrations etc. Sound critique of these and similar points is not only legitimate but highly desirable as it clarifies the issues and ultimately enhances our understanding of the subject. As this book slowly but surely finds its way to the readers, I expect to see reviews, both positive and negative. From my personal experience as a former and current Editor and/or member of the Editorial Boards of 8 academic journals and as a reviewer for more than 30, I can suggest some guidelines universally employed in the academic community. Since this book deals equally with the historical context, aesthetic values, technical issues etc, and also provides a photographic account of the items from the sources we would never see otherwise, all of the above areas should be open for discussion.The styles of the reviews will vary and it is to be expected , but the common denominators of a professional review are: objectivity knowledge of the field (supported by a reference, if needed) addressing salient points avoidance of critique of the points not in evidence avoidance of ad hominem remarks. Importantly, all affiliations with the book (editorial, promotional, financial etc) should be disclosed by the reviewer. Every book addressing a subject of importance deserves to be reviewed and critiqued, with egos stroked and feathers ruffled in the process. The only way to avoid it is not to publish at all, and the only thing worse than a negative review is an indifferent silence. Again, thanks to Mr. Khorasani for publishing this book.