Arabian Sayf

ham · 23rd September 2006, 04:05 AM

First and foremost, the Arab presence in Hyderabad dates back many centuries, and in the time of this weapon's mounting Hyderabad boasted a large Arab community, not simply mercenaries but merchants and artisans, poets, calligraphers etc. Further information on this subject is readily available online and of course, in books, as I suggested in an earlier post.

As for the sword itself, I think it clear the blade and guard are Persian work which has been remounted. The mounts, consisting of grip, pommel and scabbard, display engraved and repouseed motifs which are characteristic of Hyderabad, i.e. they represent a fusion of Arab peninsular work (visible particularlty in the borders of the mounts) and N. Indian work (visible in the floral sections at the center of the mounts.) I think one can deduce this after examining both Arab and N. Indian silverwork, provided they have access to sufficient examples.

Ham

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

hi,
i wasnt even remotely considering joining in this post, as it well outside my sphere and there are more able contributors here that would offer a more interesting opinion.
however, i am slightly confused as to where it is leading.
ham, i do understand your opinion of a hyderabad origin, but i am afraid i dont agree.
there has been a theory of a hyderabad origin a particular type of saif (previously thought to be yemeni) due to the decoration of the scabbard mounts. the theory was backed up by the presence of arab mercenaries in this region during this period.
robert elgood discusses this in one of his books, but i didnt agree then, and have not been convinced since. of course its plausable, as there are a number of these swords present in india and there must be reason for this. to say they are made by artisans in hyderabad for the foreign mercenaries can only be speculation.
there are elements of indian work but again, not enough in my opinion to define india as an origin. the work on these scabards, again in my opinion, is not hyderabadi as i dont feel the decoration even closely relates to the style of the region. hints of india in general, yes, but you can say that with a lot of related cultures.
this point has always puzzled me and i had a long coversation with the author and after thoroughly explaining his reasoning to me, nothing said was even remotely convincing past opinion and possibility. in fact, it was all way too tenuous and without much past scant hints.
yes, there are a number of these swords in india, but with the presence of such a large body of mercenaries, this is to be expected.
i am afraid my library concentrates on india, and only veers off a little onto other regions. if there another source and more backing to this theory, i would be intrigued to hear it and pleased to put peace to never-answered question.
as with all discussions, books should come second to the main location of any potential answers - the piece itself. this piece speaks of many possibilities, but i personally dont think hyderabad is one of them. i look forward you an expansion of your theory.

ariel · 23rd September 2006, 04:41 AM

So you seem to agree that there are Arabian Peninsular elements here? that was my impression too.
What about peculiar form of the pommel?

B.I · 24th September 2006, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

First and foremost, the Arab presence in Hyderabad dates back many centuries, and in the time of this weapon's mounting Hyderabad boasted a large Arab community, not simply mercenaries but merchants and artisans, poets, calligraphers etc. Further information on this subject is readily available online and of course, in books, as I suggested in an earlier post.

As for the sword itself, I think it clear the blade and guard are Persian work which has been remounted. The mounts, consisting of grip, pommel and scabbard, display engraved and repouseed motifs which are characteristic of Hyderabad, i.e. they represent a fusion of Arab peninsular work (visible particularlty in the borders of the mounts) and N. Indian work (visible in the floral sections at the center of the mounts.) I think one can deduce this after examining both Arab and N. Indian silverwork, provided they have access to sufficient examples.

Ham

hi ham,
i am away from my library, but am fully aware of the history of hyderabad. yes, it had a strong arab presence but so did a lot of other places. from scant memory, the nizam had a connection with the yemen (?) royal family.
but, this still doesnt explain hyderabad as 'confirmed' region for this redressing.
i can see nothing indian in the hilt, so i can only assume you are talking about the scabbard mounting.
your assessment seems quite definate, so i was hoping for more of a reason than a quick internet search. i am always willing (actually, hoping) to be proven wrong as this helps me learn more. i am not saying this cant be hyderabadi, but there is nothing definative that suggests this.
also, you say
''I think one can deduce this after examining both Arab and N. Indian silverwork''
hyderabad is in the south. ok, you can say maybe middle india, but never north. it was part of the deccan plateau and so under the control of the sultanates. even during the consistant mogul expansion, hyderabad kept its artistic roots, which is fully evident in the arts and architecture. so, why would it veer towards an arabic style so suddenly?
the deccan, until relatively recently, has been completely ignored and india was thought to be moghul or hindu. recent work has opened up peoples eyes to a style of art that is very specific.
i wonder where your 'hyderabad style' originates from? there must be specific pieces, or specific references that you are taking from. i have mentioned elgoods contribution, but is there something else?
there is always an option of this being made by an 'arab' artisan in hyderabad (or anywhere in india) but surely this is speculation.
given your north indian/arab suggestion, could not afghanistan be an option? there has been an strong arab presence there for many years. this would make ariels 'uzbeki' not as ridiculous as you had thought. this isnt my suggestion at all, just an alternative to hyderabad.
i agree that the sword is persian, that has been redressed. there is an additional signature on the blade, and there is a good possibility this was placed on during this redressing. maybe this would lead to a clue of the origins.
i hope that you will add to your references and i am intrigued to know more. this is only an opinion, and i am more than happy to concede, given a convincing arguement. but, i have argued this point before and am still waiting to hear anything past speculation and opinion. i hope that you are right, as its an issue that has not been put to bed as yet.

edit - i am also aware of a 'hyderabadi style' but have always questioned it. i hope you may offer a reason why this style was thought to be from this region. i have always thought it was said, then assumed, then became a 'fact'. again, if you can determine the origin of this thought, then i can see what i am missing.

The Double D · 24th September 2006, 06:52 PM

I thought discussions of value and worth were off limits on this board?

spiral · 24th September 2006, 11:54 PM

DD. The rule is...

.................................................. ...........
8. APPRAISALS

Public appraisals are not permitted on these fora. However, if you would like an appraisal of an item's value or market conditions, please request that other members contact you with that information via email or PM.
.................................................. ..............

So personaly I wouldnt have though then generalised above discusian about an interesting but vastly overpriced & unsold sword in a past auction realy counted as a request for appraisel.

Spiral

ariel · 25th September 2006, 06:16 AM

The question of a strange pommel bothered me. Then, I remembered the Law of Nature:" When in doubt, read Astvatsaturyan's book on Turkish weapons"

Here are the pics of Balkan swords; one has a pommel curiously similar to the one in question. Astvatsaturyan mentions that it was a common feature of the swords from that area: looking like Persian (90 degrees) and then going down. The Balkan attribution , by the way, would tie in the turquoise decorations as well.

The Double D · 25th September 2006, 06:29 AM

I fail to see a difference...the only purpose in discussing the fact something is over priced is to established it true price, and that to me is an appraisal.

If the appraisal rules applies to novice new guys to this board it should apply to Moderators and Administrator equally.

Ian · 25th September 2006, 08:41 AM

DD:

It's my understanding that an appraisal is a statement of the current market value of something, usually provided by an expert, mainly for the purpose of selling the item or insuring it.

We have at least a couple of attorneys on the Forum who can give a legal definition of "appraisal," but basically saying something is outrageously over priced is not an appraisal as I understand the term.

Ian.

The Double D · 25th September 2006, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

DD:

It's my understanding that an appraisal is a statement of the current market value of something, usually provided by an expert, mainly for the purpose of selling the item or insuring it.

Certainly not the criteria used when I and other New people to this board have asked the question what gives an item worth when we had no intention of buying, selling or insuring, only learning. The mere asking of the question has brought a heavy hand to bear.

Quote:

We have at least a couple of attorneys on the Forum who can give a legal definition of "appraisal," but basically saying something is outrageously over priced is not an appraisal as I understand the term.

Ian.

I'm sure those same Attorneys with payment of the proper retainer would also argue that a discussion of what features make an item less valuable is part of an appraisal process.

My real point is that your rule about appraisals is too vague. If you used the above paragraph and include the word buying and a sentence about when discssions of value are acceptable it would be clearer.

You might also add some history to the rule. Like why you made this rules. If If understand right there has been some legal action taken against a Forum about the issue of appraisals. Tell people and they will be more understanding.

My apologies to Ariel for hijacking your thread.

25th September 2006, 06:16 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The question of a strange pommel bothered me. Then, I remembered the Law of Nature:" When in doubt, read Astvatsaturyan's book on Turkish weapons" Here are the pics of Balkan swords; one has a pommel curiously similar to the one in question. Astvatsaturyan mentions that it was a common feature of the swords from that area: looking like Persian (90 degrees) and then going down. The Balkan attribution , by the way, would tie in the turquoise decorations as well. Attached Images

23rd September 2006, 04:41 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	So you seem to agree that there are Arabian Peninsular elements here? that was my impression too. What about peculiar form of the pommel?

24th September 2006, 06:52 PM	#4
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	I thought discussions of value and worth were off limits on this board?

24th September 2006, 11:54 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	DD. The rule is... .................................................. ........... 8. APPRAISALS Public appraisals are not permitted on these fora. However, if you would like an appraisal of an item's value or market conditions, please request that other members contact you with that information via email or PM. .................................................. .............. So personaly I wouldnt have though then generalised above discusian about an interesting but vastly overpriced & unsold sword in a past auction realy counted as a request for appraisel. Spiral

25th September 2006, 06:29 AM	#7
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	I fail to see a difference...the only purpose in discussing the fact something is over priced is to established it true price, and that to me is an appraisal. If the appraisal rules applies to novice new guys to this board it should apply to Moderators and Administrator equally.

25th September 2006, 08:41 AM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,399	DD: It's my understanding that an appraisal is a statement of the current market value of something, usually provided by an expert, mainly for the purpose of selling the item or insuring it. We have at least a couple of attorneys on the Forum who can give a legal definition of "appraisal," but basically saying something is outrageously over priced is not an appraisal as I understand the term. Ian.