Arabian Sayf

ALEX · 20th September 2006, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

14.5 K for that ?!?!?
This is ridiculous !

Rick, I agree, BUT do you see this type of sword (with 5 original stamps, original scabbard and mounts being readily available for less? Do you know how many people will pay way more for this one? I know plenty. The ONLY ridiculous part of it is that you can not pay a lot without seeing and carefully inspecting it.
I think it's persian or syrian. The mounts are probably from another sword.

Rick · 20th September 2006, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Rick, I agree, BUT do you see this type of sword (with 5 original stamps, original scabbard and mounts being readily available for less? Do you know how many people will pay way more for this one? I know plenty. The ONLY ridiculous part of it is that you can not pay a lot without seeing and carefully inspecting it.
I think it's persian or syrian. The mounts are probably from another sword.

Alex, this particular sword IMO is not worth what was asked ;from the comments received so far it appears to me a remounted/married piece which I interpret as not having the original scabbard and mounts. Aside from that; as you say; it would be foolish to risk so much money on a few poor quality pictures .
For this kind of money one would again IMO need to have a personal inspection by an aknowledged expert in the field.

Can we discount that this piece could also be a forgery?

ham · 20th September 2006, 04:36 PM

What sloth, gentlemen.

Has any of you bothered to look into the history of Hyderabad, or for that matter, even located it on a map? UZBEKI? For goodness sake.

Indolent and unsupported opinions... the study of antique arms and armour requires one to be informed historically as well as geographically. Pray open a book once in awhile.

Ham

Tim Simmons · 20th September 2006, 05:17 PM

I like it. I could live with it but I would only think of paying a price around that figure divided by 15

. Then maybe persuaded higher.

B.I · 20th September 2006, 05:49 PM

hi,
i wasnt even remotely considering joining in this post, as it well outside my sphere and there are more able contributors here that would offer a more interesting opinion.
however, i am slightly confused as to where it is leading.
ham, i do understand your opinion of a hyderabad origin, but i am afraid i dont agree.
there has been a theory of a hyderabad origin a particular type of saif (previously thought to be yemeni) due to the decoration of the scabbard mounts. the theory was backed up by the presence of arab mercenaries in this region during this period.
robert elgood discusses this in one of his books, but i didnt agree then, and have not been convinced since. of course its plausable, as there are a number of these swords present in india and there must be reason for this. to say they are made by artisans in hyderabad for the foreign mercenaries can only be speculation.
there are elements of indian work but again, not enough in my opinion to define india as an origin. the work on these scabards, again in my opinion, is not hyderabadi as i dont feel the decoration even closely relates to the style of the region. hints of india in general, yes, but you can say that with a lot of related cultures.
this point has always puzzled me and i had a long coversation with the author and after thoroughly explaining his reasoning to me, nothing said was even remotely convincing past opinion and possibility. in fact, it was all way too tenuous and without much past scant hints.
yes, there are a number of these swords in india, but with the presence of such a large body of mercenaries, this is to be expected.
i am afraid my library concentrates on india, and only veers off a little onto other regions. if there another source and more backing to this theory, i would be intrigued to hear it and pleased to put peace to never-answered question.
as with all discussions, books should come second to the main location of any potential answers - the piece itself. this piece speaks of many possibilities, but i personally dont think hyderabad is one of them. i look forward you an expansion of your theory.

ham · 23rd September 2006, 04:05 AM

First and foremost, the Arab presence in Hyderabad dates back many centuries, and in the time of this weapon's mounting Hyderabad boasted a large Arab community, not simply mercenaries but merchants and artisans, poets, calligraphers etc. Further information on this subject is readily available online and of course, in books, as I suggested in an earlier post.

As for the sword itself, I think it clear the blade and guard are Persian work which has been remounted. The mounts, consisting of grip, pommel and scabbard, display engraved and repouseed motifs which are characteristic of Hyderabad, i.e. they represent a fusion of Arab peninsular work (visible particularlty in the borders of the mounts) and N. Indian work (visible in the floral sections at the center of the mounts.) I think one can deduce this after examining both Arab and N. Indian silverwork, provided they have access to sufficient examples.

Ham

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

hi,
i wasnt even remotely considering joining in this post, as it well outside my sphere and there are more able contributors here that would offer a more interesting opinion.
however, i am slightly confused as to where it is leading.
ham, i do understand your opinion of a hyderabad origin, but i am afraid i dont agree.
there has been a theory of a hyderabad origin a particular type of saif (previously thought to be yemeni) due to the decoration of the scabbard mounts. the theory was backed up by the presence of arab mercenaries in this region during this period.
robert elgood discusses this in one of his books, but i didnt agree then, and have not been convinced since. of course its plausable, as there are a number of these swords present in india and there must be reason for this. to say they are made by artisans in hyderabad for the foreign mercenaries can only be speculation.
there are elements of indian work but again, not enough in my opinion to define india as an origin. the work on these scabards, again in my opinion, is not hyderabadi as i dont feel the decoration even closely relates to the style of the region. hints of india in general, yes, but you can say that with a lot of related cultures.
this point has always puzzled me and i had a long coversation with the author and after thoroughly explaining his reasoning to me, nothing said was even remotely convincing past opinion and possibility. in fact, it was all way too tenuous and without much past scant hints.
yes, there are a number of these swords in india, but with the presence of such a large body of mercenaries, this is to be expected.
i am afraid my library concentrates on india, and only veers off a little onto other regions. if there another source and more backing to this theory, i would be intrigued to hear it and pleased to put peace to never-answered question.
as with all discussions, books should come second to the main location of any potential answers - the piece itself. this piece speaks of many possibilities, but i personally dont think hyderabad is one of them. i look forward you an expansion of your theory.

ariel · 23rd September 2006, 04:41 AM

So you seem to agree that there are Arabian Peninsular elements here? that was my impression too.
What about peculiar form of the pommel?

B.I · 24th September 2006, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

First and foremost, the Arab presence in Hyderabad dates back many centuries, and in the time of this weapon's mounting Hyderabad boasted a large Arab community, not simply mercenaries but merchants and artisans, poets, calligraphers etc. Further information on this subject is readily available online and of course, in books, as I suggested in an earlier post.

As for the sword itself, I think it clear the blade and guard are Persian work which has been remounted. The mounts, consisting of grip, pommel and scabbard, display engraved and repouseed motifs which are characteristic of Hyderabad, i.e. they represent a fusion of Arab peninsular work (visible particularlty in the borders of the mounts) and N. Indian work (visible in the floral sections at the center of the mounts.) I think one can deduce this after examining both Arab and N. Indian silverwork, provided they have access to sufficient examples.

Ham

hi ham,
i am away from my library, but am fully aware of the history of hyderabad. yes, it had a strong arab presence but so did a lot of other places. from scant memory, the nizam had a connection with the yemen (?) royal family.
but, this still doesnt explain hyderabad as 'confirmed' region for this redressing.
i can see nothing indian in the hilt, so i can only assume you are talking about the scabbard mounting.
your assessment seems quite definate, so i was hoping for more of a reason than a quick internet search. i am always willing (actually, hoping) to be proven wrong as this helps me learn more. i am not saying this cant be hyderabadi, but there is nothing definative that suggests this.
also, you say
''I think one can deduce this after examining both Arab and N. Indian silverwork''
hyderabad is in the south. ok, you can say maybe middle india, but never north. it was part of the deccan plateau and so under the control of the sultanates. even during the consistant mogul expansion, hyderabad kept its artistic roots, which is fully evident in the arts and architecture. so, why would it veer towards an arabic style so suddenly?
the deccan, until relatively recently, has been completely ignored and india was thought to be moghul or hindu. recent work has opened up peoples eyes to a style of art that is very specific.
i wonder where your 'hyderabad style' originates from? there must be specific pieces, or specific references that you are taking from. i have mentioned elgoods contribution, but is there something else?
there is always an option of this being made by an 'arab' artisan in hyderabad (or anywhere in india) but surely this is speculation.
given your north indian/arab suggestion, could not afghanistan be an option? there has been an strong arab presence there for many years. this would make ariels 'uzbeki' not as ridiculous as you had thought. this isnt my suggestion at all, just an alternative to hyderabad.
i agree that the sword is persian, that has been redressed. there is an additional signature on the blade, and there is a good possibility this was placed on during this redressing. maybe this would lead to a clue of the origins.
i hope that you will add to your references and i am intrigued to know more. this is only an opinion, and i am more than happy to concede, given a convincing arguement. but, i have argued this point before and am still waiting to hear anything past speculation and opinion. i hope that you are right, as its an issue that has not been put to bed as yet.

edit - i am also aware of a 'hyderabadi style' but have always questioned it. i hope you may offer a reason why this style was thought to be from this region. i have always thought it was said, then assumed, then became a 'fact'. again, if you can determine the origin of this thought, then i can see what i am missing.

20th September 2006, 04:36 PM	#3
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	What sloth, gentlemen. Has any of you bothered to look into the history of Hyderabad, or for that matter, even located it on a map? UZBEKI? For goodness sake. Indolent and unsupported opinions... the study of antique arms and armour requires one to be informed historically as well as geographically. Pray open a book once in awhile. Ham

20th September 2006, 05:17 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I like it. I could live with it but I would only think of paying a price around that figure divided by 15 . Then maybe persuaded higher.

20th September 2006, 05:49 PM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi, i wasnt even remotely considering joining in this post, as it well outside my sphere and there are more able contributors here that would offer a more interesting opinion. however, i am slightly confused as to where it is leading. ham, i do understand your opinion of a hyderabad origin, but i am afraid i dont agree. there has been a theory of a hyderabad origin a particular type of saif (previously thought to be yemeni) due to the decoration of the scabbard mounts. the theory was backed up by the presence of arab mercenaries in this region during this period. robert elgood discusses this in one of his books, but i didnt agree then, and have not been convinced since. of course its plausable, as there are a number of these swords present in india and there must be reason for this. to say they are made by artisans in hyderabad for the foreign mercenaries can only be speculation. there are elements of indian work but again, not enough in my opinion to define india as an origin. the work on these scabards, again in my opinion, is not hyderabadi as i dont feel the decoration even closely relates to the style of the region. hints of india in general, yes, but you can say that with a lot of related cultures. this point has always puzzled me and i had a long coversation with the author and after thoroughly explaining his reasoning to me, nothing said was even remotely convincing past opinion and possibility. in fact, it was all way too tenuous and without much past scant hints. yes, there are a number of these swords in india, but with the presence of such a large body of mercenaries, this is to be expected. i am afraid my library concentrates on india, and only veers off a little onto other regions. if there another source and more backing to this theory, i would be intrigued to hear it and pleased to put peace to never-answered question. as with all discussions, books should come second to the main location of any potential answers - the piece itself. this piece speaks of many possibilities, but i personally dont think hyderabad is one of them. i look forward you an expansion of your theory.

23rd September 2006, 04:41 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	So you seem to agree that there are Arabian Peninsular elements here? that was my impression too. What about peculiar form of the pommel?