Fighting with keris

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Despite what traditional keris 'scholars' in Java said, IMHO, keris is a deadly weapon. From the very start, that is the keris making process, what empu really do is making a fine weapons, and plus, plus, plus some more intentions, of course. But even there are many intentions, it's 'weapon construction' had never changed. It's layering construction is technologicaly the best construction possible, called Jia Gang by Chinese Jian smith or Sanmai by Japanese Katana/Nihonto smith. The 'Wasuh' process, is the purifying process also done by Chinese and Japanese smith. The 'Flaw' categorizing in Javanese keris such as Pegat Waja, Pegat Pamor, broken tang, etc also reflected the weapon assesment (such as Kizu in Katana), which then extended to symbolism and spiritual meaning. It is the Javanese cultural tendency to extend almost anything to symbolism and spiritual realm. IMHO, the development of keris symbolism would be paralel to the development of ricikans, dhapurs, and pamor motifs.

Because of it's relatively small/short blades, it never became main weapon for javanese soldier. As a weapon, keris should be considered as today's bayonet. It is, as already stated, a last resort weapon, before you use the bare hand. As the last resort, it should vanish any enemy you encounter (or they may vanish you ). IMHO, Those who use keris as a weapon should 'hide' the blade to 'invite' the enemy to come closer, rather than to exhibit it in a threatening pose. Considering it's relatively small tang, ones shouldn't slash or parry opponent's weapon with (Javanese) keris. Stabbing, or occasionally slicing/cutting opponent's hand, are the prefered ways. To use the warangka as a forearm protection, the elders said, ones should hold the longest wooden section in his palm, and let the gandar/pendok cover the outer forearm through the elbow. Using iron pendok, it is a sufficient, expedient forearm protection one may use to parry opponent's weapon. By using the sharp, protruding part of ladrang style sheath, ones may even use the warangka as an offensive weapon. But unfortunately, no written traditional book on using keris as a weapon ever wrote.

As already stated, no main Javanese Silat school such as Setia Hati Terate, Perisai Diri, Merpati Putih or Tapak Suci has keris jurus, as long as I remember. The Maduras Pamur school, while it use keris as it's school symbol, has it neither. If I were a Javanese soldier in old days, I would bring lance/tombak or firearm, a pedang, and two keris: a sturdy, straight one in front as my last resort, and the old one on my back as my guardian angel . A good keris then, should fulfill the functional(weapon), aesthetical, and symbolic/spiritual requirements.

There were a murder case in Jogjakarta, where the murderer use his heirloom keris and stabb the victim on the buttock. The victim died after several hours hospitalized. Well, Gentlemen, please use your another 'poisonous keris' when you're fighting with your wife I shouldn't tell where you should stabb her, should I ?

Best Regards,

boedhi adhitya

[A. G. Maisey]

Awas Pak Boedhi. Awas.

99.9% of what you have written is so close to my own position on the keris within Javanese society that were I to address the subject as you have, only form and words would be changed.

Meaning and intent would be unaltered.

[David]

Originally Posted by Boedhi Adhitya

Well, Gentlemen, please use your another 'poisonous keris' when you're fighting with your wife I shouldn't tell where you should stabb her, should I ?

LOL! OK Boedhi, you owe me a new keyboard after making me spite up my morning coffee laughing at this.

Would either you or Alan like to make any comments on the validity of these stories of poison used on keris blades?

[Mick]

Check this one out. Not a lot of flash here. Just usable stuff. Ouch!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPhUE9JzSE4

[David]

A bit off-topic, but interesting none the less.
The Karambit is indeed a nasty little weapon.

[kai]

I was taught to expect everything when fighting - never ignore/underestimate a threat just because it may seem unlikely/weird/whatever!

That being said, poisons and caustic substances seem to be an integral part of (most?) traditional MAs/warfare throughout the archipelago. AFAIK, one "acid" test for skill is that an opponent isn't able to touch/grab you at all during "rough play" (without weapons). This makes sense since you never expect a real opponent to be unarmed in the first place but it also was explained to me that possible applications of poisons, skin attacks and other very unpleasant "distractions" weighted into this cautionary approach.

I'm far from convinced that even in the "good old days" Keris blades were routinely poisoned since this would seem to be unnecessarily risky. But I seem to remember accounts that blades (Tombak, arrows, bamboo traps, etc.) were poisoned when battle was imminent.

Regards,
Kai

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Boedhi Adhitya

....
As already stated, no main Javanese Silat school such as Setia Hati Terate, Perisai Diri, Merpati Putih or Tapak Suci has keris jurus, as long as I remember. The Maduras Pamur school, while it use keris as it's school symbol, has it neither. If I were a Javanese soldier in old days, I would bring lance/tombak or firearm, a pedang, and two keris: a sturdy, straight one in front as my last resort, and the old one on my back as my guardian angel . A good keris then, should fulfill the functional(weapon), aesthetical, and symbolic/spiritual requirements.

There were a murder case in Jogjakarta, where the murderer use his heirloom keris and stabb the victim on the buttock. The victim died after several hours hospitalized. Well, Gentlemen, please use your another 'poisonous keris' when you're fighting with your wife I shouldn't tell where you should stabb her, should I ?

Best Regards,

boedhi adhitya

Nuwun sewu, everyone,

There was a couple of years ago a murder in Sragen where the killer used his keris and tried to convince the judge that his keris made him do it but the judge didn't have it.

In my experience there are two ways to poison your blade common in Jawa. The rich-man's way is to us warangan. A friend of mine died within hours after being stabbed in the thigh with a waranganed badik and the hospital refusing to treat him because he had tattoes. So plain warangan seems to be deadly enough.

The other is the poor-man's cacam way, in which you collect as many venomous reptiles and insects you can get, let them rot in a container, and let you blade soak in the rotting mass preferably untill there are layers of the goo on it. Every time the general elections are near and the campaiging season starts, alot of village and kampung thugs begin to do this.

There are now Western Pendekars who claim to teach Jawa silat and add keris and kujang jurus to their repertoar. However in my opinion this would be most likely be their own invention. As for Jawa Princes studying silat? Of course it happened! Although the name was kanuragan rather than silat. It was not a good thing to do (politically) though, for if the Dutch found that you were interested in martial arts your career prospects were sorely influenced.

For instance, WS Rendra's father and grandfather were silat teachers in the Yogya kraton in the line of Suryoningalogo. The late Bagong Kussudihardjo's Grandfather was Gusti Djuminah, who would have been Sultan Hamengkubawana VIII had not he been put under house arrest because of interest in silat. The more famous Merpati Putih school traces its lineage back to the times of the traitor-king Amangkurat of Kartasura.

I would like to restate my question about the position of the handle... does anyone have any picture or knowledge of how the handle was positioned in Jawa when the keris was still a weapon? And also, in the Majapahit and earlier eras, what was the keris Bali like?

Thank you all in advance,
Bram.

[A. G. Maisey]

Warangan used to stain a keris blade does not render the blade poisonous.

The warangan combines with the ferric material of the blade , in much the same way as the chemicals used to achieve a cold blue effect in firearms , combine with the ferric material of firearms. If by some extremely unlikely chance there was a residue of arsenic on a keris blade, this residue would be so miniscule that it would not cause any injury through a poison effect.

For those with an interest in arsenic:-

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/arsenic/index.html

The word "cacam" puzzles me.

I do not know this word.

Nor do the seven Javanese people whom I have asked its meaning.

I cannot find the word in any Indonesian, Modern Javanese, or Old Javanese dictionary.

There is a word "cacampuri" in Kawi (ancient literary language) which seems to carry the meaning of mixing ingredients.

I would be very pleased to learn the meaning and origin of this word "cacam".

During colonial times there were many Javanese princes. I agree that it would be unlikely that at least some of these princes did not learn some Javanese martial art, however, in the written accounts of the education of those princes who rose to become rulers I can find no mention of these personages indulging in a study of silat, and quite frankly, I find it very difficult to reconcile the Kraton culture of the colonial era in Jawa with the study of silat by the heirs to the throne.
George Cameron Stone visited Jawa during the late colonial period, so in the matter of Javanese princes demonstrating systems of fence using the keris it is the probability of such systems being taught to Javanese royalty during this period which must be considered.I concede that the possibility does exist that George Cameron Stone was provided with a genuine exhibition of a system of fence specific to the keris, however, I cannot accept that this was a probability.

The word "kanuragan" is not a synonym for "silat".

"Kanuragan" in the sense of a protective discipline, means "invulnerable", and is a synonym of "kedhotan".

For those of you with an interest in understanding "kanuragan" you may care to visit this site:-

http://www.antarakita.net/reviews/r28.html

Gusti Djuminah was put under house arrest because of an interest in silat?
Isn`t it amazing how the truth of matters becomes buried in popular belief?
I had always thought Gusti Djuminah was exiled because he was a traitor.
Apparently many other people also think that this is what happened.

http://www.tasteofjogja.com/IDA/detailbud.asp?idbud=297

Ah well---truth will out.


Merpati Putih USA does make the claim that :-

"Merpati Putih Pencak Silat is the Indonesian Royal Family’s secret Martial Art and Inner Power System. MP was developed in the 1550’s and passed down through the generations very strictly from father to son & so on, only taught by the King to his Heirs. For over 400 years MP was very rarely if ever, seen by anyone outside the Royal Family. "
1550 is some considerable time prior to the Kartosuro era.

Regretably no references or documentation to support this claim are provided on the Merpati Putih USA website.

In spite of this long and regal history of silat in Jawa, there would seem to be no mention of it in literary sources, which to me, seems a little strange. I would have expected at least a passing mention in Centini, but I can find nothing.

I guess this proves beyond doubt that silat in Old Jawa was such a closely guarded secret, known of only by initiates, that virtually nobody else knew of its existence.

[VVV]

Or maybe it's like fishing stories?
I have heard several examples of fantastic stories of the history of different Silat styles that is only told in US, and in some cases has been exported to European Silat circles...

Michael

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Warangan used to stain a keris blade does not render the blade poisonous.

The warangan combines with the ferric material of the blade , in much the same way as the chemicals used to achieve a cold blue effect in firearms , combine with the ferric material of firearms. If by some extremely unlikely chance there was a residue of arsenic on a keris blade, this residue would be so miniscule that it would not cause any injury through a poison effect.

For those with an interest in arsenic:-

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/arsenic/index.html

The word "cacam" puzzles me.

I do not know this word.

Nor do the seven Javanese people whom I have asked its meaning.

I cannot find the word in any Indonesian, Modern Javanese, or Old Javanese dictionary.

There is a word "cacampuri" in Kawi (ancient literary language) which seems to carry the meaning of mixing ingredients.

I would be very pleased to learn the meaning and origin of this word "cacam".

During colonial times there were many Javanese princes. I agree that it would be unlikely that at least some of these princes did not learn some Javanese martial art, however, in the written accounts of the education of those princes who rose to become rulers I can find no mention of these personages indulging in a study of silat, and quite frankly, I find it very difficult to reconcile the Kraton culture of the colonial era in Jawa with the study of silat by the heirs to the throne.
George Cameron Stone visited Jawa during the late colonial period, so in the matter of Javanese princes demonstrating systems of fence using the keris it is the probability of such systems being taught to Javanese royalty during this period which must be considered.I concede that the possibility does exist that George Cameron Stone was provided with a genuine exhibition of a system of fence specific to the keris, however, I cannot accept that this was a probability.

The word "kanuragan" is not a synonym for "silat".

"Kanuragan" in the sense of a protective discipline, means "invulnerable", and is a synonym of "kedhotan".

For those of you with an interest in understanding "kanuragan" you may care to visit this site:-

http://www.antarakita.net/reviews/r28.html

Gusti Djuminah was put under house arrest because of an interest in silat?
Isn`t it amazing how the truth of matters becomes buried in popular belief?
I had always thought Gusti Djuminah was exiled because he was a traitor.
Apparently many other people also think that this is what happened.

http://www.tasteofjogja.com/IDA/detailbud.asp?idbud=297

Ah well---truth will out.


Merpati Putih USA does make the claim that :-

"Merpati Putih Pencak Silat is the Indonesian Royal Family’s secret Martial Art and Inner Power System. MP was developed in the 1550’s and passed down through the generations very strictly from father to son & so on, only taught by the King to his Heirs. For over 400 years MP was very rarely if ever, seen by anyone outside the Royal Family. "
1550 is some considerable time prior to the Kartosuro era.

Regretably no references or documentation to support this claim are provided on the Merpati Putih USA website.

In spite of this long and regal history of silat in Jawa, there would seem to be no mention of it in literary sources, which to me, seems a little strange. I would have expected at least a passing mention in Centini, but I can find nothing.

I guess this proves beyond doubt that silat in Old Jawa was such a closely guarded secret, known of only by initiates, that virtually nobody else knew of its existence.

Nuwun sewu Pak Alan,

The word cacam is related to cemceman (oil and herbs for the hair) or tempe bacem. The cem part would indicate a marinade. It is mentioned in Pak Bambang's Ensiklopedi, and I have often seen people doing it.

Katosan and kanuragan is what most Jawanese would learn and pencak silat can and often is a part of katosan / kanuragan.

Gusti Juminah was a traitor to the Dutch colonialists but to the nationalist Mataramites he was the king of Yogya who never was. Studying kanuragan and silat was seen as a sign of treachery by the Dutch. This story I got from almarhum Pak Bagong himself, grandson of Gusti Juminah so of course it sees him positive.

If warangan doesn't kill, what makes people die in hours after being stabbed with a blade that has warangan on it? The wound becomes blue quickly and it begins to swell. Or are there other kinds of warangan? My friend died from a badik that had warangan on it.

As for Merpati Putih going back further that Kartasura, I would not be surprised. Merpati Putih as it is now, however comes down through Mataram, to the Jawa War 1825-30. The form we see nowadays was formulated after the Merdeka.

warm salaams to all,
Bram

[Pusaka]

You can still order poison blades today although I think the process is different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmJJLhy0o-M

[David]

Pusaka, is there supposed to be sound on that video. Mine ran silent.
Just to re-focus the discussion though, i would like to hear more about the validity of poisoning KERIS blades as this is specifically a keris forum and fighting with KERIS is the question at hand. There is not doubt that blades from different areas have received such treatment, though i am a bit dubious of the method in this video since i would imagine all that intense heat would destroy any poisons in the spider.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

Pusaka, is there supposed to be sound on that video. Mine ran silent.
Just to re-focus the discussion though, i would like to hear more about the validity of poisoning KERIS blades as this is specifically a keris forum and fighting with KERIS is the question at hand. There is not doubt that blades from different areas have received such treatment, though i am a bit dubious of the method in this video since i would imagine all that intense heat would destroy any poisons in the spider.

Yes there is sound with this video and yes I agree with you, I don’t think the poison venom would survive the intense heat and acid.
I was told that the blades were poisoned simply by rubbing the blade onto a poisonous tree frog, very simple and easy to do. I have no idea as to what frog was used but that is what I was told “frog poison”

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

You can still order poison blades today although I think the process is different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmJJLhy0o-M

Well, i did finally get the sound to work on this video. If these spiders are so deadly and kill within hours, can someone tell be why they are crawling all over these guys in the video? I also don't see how the poisons that these spiders supposedly carry can survive the fire and the acid that is used in this process. The whole thing sounds pretty sketchy to me.