Unusual Keris Dress from where?

VVV · 24th August 2006, 09:35 AM

Interesting thread.
I also always thought that Keris dressed like that were early Maduran tourist Keris. Even if the hilt has influence of f.i. Cirebon/Tegal Ganesha hilts or East Javanese floral hilts I find the carvings on the sheath more resembling Madura?
The reference Henk didn't remember could be D van Duuren, The Kris - An earthly approach to a cosmic symbol, page 72 (at least in the English version).

Michael

Henk · 24th August 2006, 01:43 PM

Michael,

It was Van Duuren indeed who is writing on page 78 about the keris brought back by the dutch soldiers. This keris could be considered as an early kind of touristkeris.
Your thought wasn't so bad at all.

On page 74 (in the dutch copy) he shows a maduran keris with an ukiran in the pulasir style with helmet and epaulettes, symbols of the dutch army and the winged horse on the belly of the ukiran. On the wrangka watermotives representing Madura as a seperate and from Java independent island. Madura was very loyal to the Dutch. Many soldiers for the KNIL came from Madura. For their services Maduran royals became officially the title Sultan. Princes who fought bravely became the rank of colonel. Sultans and colonels were decorated with dutch military orders. The maduran royals were very proud on this honour and represented their pride in the ukirans who became the form of militaries in uniform with helmets, epaulettes, braids and ribbons. Of course these ukirans could vary with indonesian symbols. Sometimes small dragons are found on the helmets and parts of the uniforms change into flowers or twines with leaves. The names given to these ukirans landhian langsir and landhian pulasir refer to the dutch lancer and cuirassier.

David · 24th August 2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Michael,The maduran royals were very proud on this honour and represented their pride in the ukirans who became the form of militaries in uniform with helmets, epaulettes, braids and ribbons. Of course these ukirans could vary with indonesian symbols. Sometimes small dragons are found on the helmets and parts of the uniforms change into flowers or twines with leaves. The names given to these ukirans landhian langsir and landhian pulasir refer to the dutch lancer and cuirassier.

Yes, and a lovely example of the Dutch soldier's keris that you show us Henk.

But this is part of my argument for this NOT being such a keris. None of this type of representation (figurative), either dutch or Indonesian, appear in Naga Sasra's dress. If we look at the "touristy" dress that formed in Bali we also see very figurative designs such as a greatt big Kala face. Fancy and figurative seems to be what the European mindset wanted. It is also true, i think, that East jawa and Madura presented quite alot of nice wood carving in their traditional keris dress, so i am not inclined to immediately believe that this is a design created for export. It certainly could have been, i just don't see anything that implies it.
BTW, i don't think anyone was pointing your way particularly for starting the idea that this might be a tourist piece. I believe Naga Sasra began his thread with the thought.

VVV · 24th August 2006, 04:36 PM

David,

Could you please either show us a picture of an East Javanese carved sheath or give a page referral in any of the Keris books?
I only follow you on the Maduran sheaths?

Michael

David · 24th August 2006, 07:53 PM

Sorry for the confusion Michael, i wasn't referring to sheaths necessarily when i mentioned nicely carved dress. There are some wonderfully carved East Javanese hilts though. You are probably right, richly carved sheaths are more the style of Madura than East Jawa. I think what is probably swaying me towards an East Jawa origin for this keris is that the hilt seems so, though i think this form also shows up in Madura. Of course that is probably a bad indication to follow since Naga Sasra has informed us that the keris fits badly and probably isn't original to the sheath. Still an interesting mystery.

Henk · 25th August 2006, 09:26 AM

David,

Van Duuren is mentioning two things. The military ukiran the maduran developed after being honoured for their help to the dutch army. I add a picture of such a ukiran below. That is such a ukiran referring to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

The maduran royals were very proud on this honour and represented their pride in the ukirans who became the form of militaries in uniform with helmets, epaulettes, braids and ribbons. Of course these ukirans could vary with indonesian symbols. Sometimes small dragons are found on the helmets and parts of the uniforms change into flowers or twines with leaves. The names given to these ukirans landhian langsir and landhian pulasir refer to the dutch lancer and cuirassier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes, and a lovely example of the Dutch soldier's keris that you show us Henk.

But this is part of my argument for this NOT being such a keris. None of this type of representation (figurative), either dutch or Indonesian, appear in Naga Sasra's dress. If we look at the "touristy" dress that formed in Bali we also see very figurative designs such as a greatt big Kala face. Fancy and figurative seems to be what the European mindset wanted. It is also true, i think, that East jawa and Madura presented quite alot of nice wood carving in their traditional keris dress, so i am not inclined to immediately believe that this is a design created for export. It certainly could have been, i just don't see anything that implies it.
BTW, i don't think anyone was pointing your way particularly for starting the idea that this might be a tourist piece. I believe Naga Sasra began his thread with the thought.

The soldiers keris I showed you and the soldiers keris with the lying lion on the wrangka (such examples appear from time to time on ebay) are the keris brought back to Holland by the dutch soldiers as a souvenir and what Van Duuren called the first early tourist keris.
The keris Naga Sasra shows us has such an equal appearance as those keris. As i wrote before, here in Holland those keris come up from time to time. Mostly the usual "standard" soldiers keris with lying lion on the wrangka and a male or female ukiran, but sometimes in a complete different dress but still recognizable as a soldiers keris.

I prefer to speak about "soldiers keris" and not about "tourist keris". For me a tourist keris is a complete different category.

Marcokeris · 25th August 2006, 11:06 AM

I agree with Henk.
I add another "soldier" ukiran's picture

Henk · 25th August 2006, 01:29 PM

Marcokeris,

That's also a lovely example of such a maduran ukiran. Are there two lions in the shield on the belly? If so it is possibly the dutch royal weapon.

David · 25th August 2006, 03:05 PM

Henk and Marcokeris, thanks for posting these examples. I agree with you Henk that these "soldier's keris" are in a different catagory to what we often think of as a "tourist" keris, although i don't particularly like the term "tourist" keris in general as it is usually only meant to describe low quality keris, some of which might actually serve some ethnographic service such as a part of wedding attire and not actually be meant for export.
I have seen these "soldier's keris" in all levels of quality and i think they are certainly important in the overall history of the keris. I wouldn't mind finding a good example one day for my own collection.

However, i still fail to see how Naga Sasra's keris is in any way "equal" to these "soldier"s keris" other than the fact that they both have carved sheaths. I see no similarities here.

Marcokeris · 28th August 2006, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Marcokeris,

That's also a lovely example of such a maduran ukiran. Are there two lions in the shield on the belly? If so it is possibly the dutch royal weapon.

No, only one lion with a sword. On a side a horse, on the other side a dragon

25th August 2006, 11:06 AM	#7
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	I agree with Henk. I add another "soldier" ukiran's picture Attached Images

24th August 2006, 09:35 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Interesting thread. I also always thought that Keris dressed like that were early Maduran tourist Keris. Even if the hilt has influence of f.i. Cirebon/Tegal Ganesha hilts or East Javanese floral hilts I find the carvings on the sheath more resembling Madura? The reference Henk didn't remember could be D van Duuren, The Kris - An earthly approach to a cosmic symbol, page 72 (at least in the English version). Michael

24th August 2006, 01:43 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Michael, It was Van Duuren indeed who is writing on page 78 about the keris brought back by the dutch soldiers. This keris could be considered as an early kind of touristkeris. Your thought wasn't so bad at all. On page 74 (in the dutch copy) he shows a maduran keris with an ukiran in the pulasir style with helmet and epaulettes, symbols of the dutch army and the winged horse on the belly of the ukiran. On the wrangka watermotives representing Madura as a seperate and from Java independent island. Madura was very loyal to the Dutch. Many soldiers for the KNIL came from Madura. For their services Maduran royals became officially the title Sultan. Princes who fought bravely became the rank of colonel. Sultans and colonels were decorated with dutch military orders. The maduran royals were very proud on this honour and represented their pride in the ukirans who became the form of militaries in uniform with helmets, epaulettes, braids and ribbons. Of course these ukirans could vary with indonesian symbols. Sometimes small dragons are found on the helmets and parts of the uniforms change into flowers or twines with leaves. The names given to these ukirans landhian langsir and landhian pulasir refer to the dutch lancer and cuirassier.

24th August 2006, 04:36 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	David, Could you please either show us a picture of an East Javanese carved sheath or give a page referral in any of the Keris books? I only follow you on the Maduran sheaths? Michael

24th August 2006, 07:53 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,220	Sorry for the confusion Michael, i wasn't referring to sheaths necessarily when i mentioned nicely carved dress. There are some wonderfully carved East Javanese hilts though. You are probably right, richly carved sheaths are more the style of Madura than East Jawa. I think what is probably swaying me towards an East Jawa origin for this keris is that the hilt seems so, though i think this form also shows up in Madura. Of course that is probably a bad indication to follow since Naga Sasra has informed us that the keris fits badly and probably isn't original to the sheath. Still an interesting mystery.

25th August 2006, 01:29 PM	#8
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Marcokeris, That's also a lovely example of such a maduran ukiran. Are there two lions in the shield on the belly? If so it is possibly the dutch royal weapon.

25th August 2006, 03:05 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,220	Henk and Marcokeris, thanks for posting these examples. I agree with you Henk that these "soldier's keris" are in a different catagory to what we often think of as a "tourist" keris, although i don't particularly like the term "tourist" keris in general as it is usually only meant to describe low quality keris, some of which might actually serve some ethnographic service such as a part of wedding attire and not actually be meant for export. I have seen these "soldier's keris" in all levels of quality and i think they are certainly important in the overall history of the keris. I wouldn't mind finding a good example one day for my own collection. However, i still fail to see how Naga Sasra's keris is in any way "equal" to these "soldier"s keris" other than the fact that they both have carved sheaths. I see no similarities here.