Kindjal

Andrew · 15th August 2006, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

Gent's, I don't mean to be rude, but could we get back to kindjals?

I agree completely, DD. Thank you.

Gentlemen, I know certain topics easily lead to socio-political discussions, but let's remain sensitive to how easily such discussions can cause a thread to veer sharply off-topic into unpleasant territory. Thanks.

Kubur · 13th January 2015, 03:29 PM

Hi I was surprised to see that

Kindjal means Khanjar in Russian!

Kin-jal
Kan-jar

In fact they are all Daggers!!

It's like Kilij (Turkish) = Pala (Greeck) = Shamshir (Persian) = Saif (Arabic)
= sword

sorry my comment is probably very stupid...

VANDOO · 13th January 2015, 07:09 PM

COMMENTS HERE ARE SELDOM STUPID, HUMOROUS AND SILLY AT TIMES BUT NOT STUPID. TO SOME A COMMENT MAY BE OBVIOUS AND A WELL KNOWN FACT OR FALLACY BUT TO OTHERS IT MAY BE NEW INFORMATION. WHILE WE OFTEN COVER THE SAME GROUND HERE ITS STILL WORTH IT AS WE MAY COME ACROSS NEW INFORMATION AT SOME POINT.

Sancar · 13th January 2015, 07:31 PM

I have a different theory(though not set in stone) about the origin of "kindjal" or qama; I believe this particular form of shrot sword/dagger to come from Iran and Central Asia and evolved from the Scythian short sword akinakes.

What do you guys think?

Oliver Pinchot · 15th January 2015, 06:45 PM

There was a substantial, in many cases overwhelming, Arab military presence in Western Asia by the late 8th century. This included wars with Byzantium and several of the Caucasian kingdoms. One of the words which was adopted from Arabic was khanjar: rendered kindjal in Russian and khanjul in Armenian. There were probably distinct characteristics to the weapon itself which accompanied this adoption, such as its form or mode of wear. In Russian, kindjal means generically, a dagger.

Kindjal is an odd term to use for the well-known Caucasian dagger, one which was applied by Imperial Russian soldiers serving in the Crimea and Caucasus and later by arms specialists. It was adopted thereafter by collectors who came in contact with it through Russian sources. Local groups did not use the word "kindjal" until after the Caucasian Wars. Each culture has at least one name of its own; Adighea and Georgian, among others, have a number of terms, each relative to the characteristics of the weapon.

One of these terms in Adighea is kama. Kama is a loan-word from Ottoman قامه, (kama in modern Turkish) meaning a wedge or tapering double-edged blade*. Together with the term, this form of dagger was introduced via Black Sea trade to the Adighea-speaking groups we know as Circassians. It spread very quickly through the rest of the Caucasus, assuming subtle but distinct regional variations in form and embellishment. (The distinctive Circassian tunic and cavalry saber, called by the Russian military, cherkesska and shashka but actually tse and shash'huwa in Adighea, were also adopted throughout the Caucasus during the 19th century; again, with regional distinctions.)

(*The Ottoman term قامه can be found here: https://archive.org/stream/Dictionna...up/search/kama )

The terms kilic, shamshir and seyf (or saif) refer generically to a "sword" in Turkish, Persian and Arabic, however pala, a Turkish word, was used to refer specifically to the curved and back-edged saber we think of as characteristically Ottoman from at least the 18th century. Interestingly, the Turkish word for a straight-bladed broadsword or thrusting sword (an estoc or tuck, in English) is meç (metch,) a cognate with the Russian word меч(mietch) and by extension, the Finnish term, miekka.

Sancar · 16th January 2015, 02:04 AM

Actually "meç" is a loan word from either French or Hungarian I believe. But it is used in Turkish to mean "narrow straight double edged blade" as early as 1400s.

"Pala" is a very generic term that can mean very different things in historical usage varying from a large gypsy knife( Çingene palası) to even a longer yataghan. Today, people tend to use it for late period ottoman kilij which I find very problematic terminologically.

"Kama" is a Turkish term specifically for a straight double edged pointy, triangular, or tapering double edged blade or wedge. It is a very old word. You can find it even in oldest Turkish texts and dictionaries.

13th January 2015, 03:29 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	kin jal khan jar Hi I was surprised to see that Kindjal means Khanjar in Russian! Kin-jal Kan-jar In fact they are all Daggers!! It's like Kilij (Turkish) = Pala (Greeck) = Shamshir (Persian) = Saif (Arabic) = sword sorry my comment is probably very stupid...

13th January 2015, 07:09 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	COMMENTS HERE ARE SELDOM STUPID, HUMOROUS AND SILLY AT TIMES BUT NOT STUPID. TO SOME A COMMENT MAY BE OBVIOUS AND A WELL KNOWN FACT OR FALLACY BUT TO OTHERS IT MAY BE NEW INFORMATION. WHILE WE OFTEN COVER THE SAME GROUND HERE ITS STILL WORTH IT AS WE MAY COME ACROSS NEW INFORMATION AT SOME POINT.

13th January 2015, 07:31 PM	#4
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	I have a different theory(though not set in stone) about the origin of "kindjal" or qama; I believe this particular form of shrot sword/dagger to come from Iran and Central Asia and evolved from the Scythian short sword akinakes. What do you guys think?

15th January 2015, 06:45 PM	#5
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 465	There was a substantial, in many cases overwhelming, Arab military presence in Western Asia by the late 8th century. This included wars with Byzantium and several of the Caucasian kingdoms. One of the words which was adopted from Arabic was khanjar: rendered kindjal in Russian and khanjul in Armenian. There were probably distinct characteristics to the weapon itself which accompanied this adoption, such as its form or mode of wear. In Russian, kindjal means generically, a dagger. Kindjal is an odd term to use for the well-known Caucasian dagger, one which was applied by Imperial Russian soldiers serving in the Crimea and Caucasus and later by arms specialists. It was adopted thereafter by collectors who came in contact with it through Russian sources. Local groups did not use the word "kindjal" until after the Caucasian Wars. Each culture has at least one name of its own; Adighea and Georgian, among others, have a number of terms, each relative to the characteristics of the weapon. One of these terms in Adighea is kama. Kama is a loan-word from Ottoman قامه, (kama in modern Turkish) meaning a wedge or tapering double-edged blade. Together with the term, this form of dagger was introduced via Black Sea trade to the Adighea-speaking groups we know as Circassians. It spread very quickly through the rest of the Caucasus, assuming subtle but distinct regional variations in form and embellishment. (The distinctive Circassian tunic and cavalry saber, called by the Russian military, cherkesska* and shashka but actually tse and shash'huwa in Adighea, were also adopted throughout the Caucasus during the 19th century; again, with regional distinctions.) (The Ottoman term قامه can be found here: https://archive.org/stream/Dictionna...up/search/kama ) The terms kilic, shamshir and seyf (or saif) refer generically to a "sword" in Turkish, Persian and Arabic, however pala, a Turkish word, was used to refer specifically to the curved and back-edged saber we think of as characteristically Ottoman from at least the 18th century. Interestingly, the Turkish word for a straight-bladed broadsword or thrusting sword (an estoc or tuck, in English) is meç* (metch,) a cognate with the Russian word меч(mietch) and by extension, the Finnish term, miekka.

16th January 2015, 02:04 AM	#6
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	Actually "meç" is a loan word from either French or Hungarian I believe. But it is used in Turkish to mean "narrow straight double edged blade" as early as 1400s. "Pala" is a very generic term that can mean very different things in historical usage varying from a large gypsy knife( Çingene palası) to even a longer yataghan. Today, people tend to use it for late period ottoman kilij which I find very problematic terminologically. "Kama" is a Turkish term specifically for a straight double edged pointy, triangular, or tapering double edged blade or wedge. It is a very old word. You can find it even in oldest Turkish texts and dictionaries.