Kindjal

ausjulius · 13th August 2006, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

So to recap what you gentlemen have said.

The kindjal is a short sword or dagger. The Short Sword being the original form.

It is assumed to have originated in the Caucasus. But there may be some evidence that questions that.

The blade is broad symmetrical and pointed and will have fullers.

The hilt or handle is distinct in having the shape of a minaret and will not be wider that the blade. There will be to raised rivets heads on one side of the handle.

The sheath will have a loop for belt, metal throat and pointed tip.

How's that?

From viewing the linked websites and looking at EBay, it appears to me the the kindjal has evolved from an ethnographic weapon to an ethnographic weapon that is an artwork.

Is there such a thing as a functional or working kindjal versus a kindjal that is just art? If there is such a thing, how do you distingush a working kindjal from an artwork.

the dress kindjals have small handles , for about 3 fingers,, and a long pointed blade,, they are for dress and as use as daggers, ive never seen one of these as a "working" kindjal,, theyer always decorated,, as thats what they were...
the working kindjals will normaly have a proper sized handel , and the fittings would be only plane metal , and the blade long enougth and broad enougth to be used for hacking aswell as stabbing,, normaly a one peice buffalo horn or wood handle will be used, and the sheath will be leather couvered wood,,
the blades on the useing kindjals normaly are about 50 cms or bigger,

Rivkin · 13th August 2006, 04:24 PM

"kindjal-tricks" are surprisingly essentially the same among south and north caucasians. I would guess there are a few "weird" styles that are different (like blind fight in the south), but the basic styles are the same.
You are completely right that no one really looked into it; if its northern iran (i.e. turkish tribes of Azerbaijan), I would see a problem with distinguishing their influence from the influence of other turkoman, timurid etc tribes. Arab influence was strong in Georgia in 7th-9th centuries, but slowly died out since. The problem essentially that besides territories that georgraphically surround Caucasus (Lazika, Azerbaijan, Balkans) no one has this weapon.

ausjulius · 13th August 2006, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

"kindjal-tricks" are surprisingly essentially the same among south and north caucasians. I would guess there are a few "weird" styles that are different (like blind fight in the south), but the basic styles are the same.
You are completely right that no one really looked into it; if its northern iran (i.e. turkish tribes of Azerbaijan), I would see a problem with distinguishing their influence from the influence of other turkoman, timurid etc tribes. Arab influence was strong in Georgia in 7th-9th centuries, but slowly died out since. The problem essentially that besides territories that georgraphically surround Caucasus (Lazika, Azerbaijan, Balkans) no one has this weapon.

you are correct with the kindjal and sword tricks being spread around the caucasus , however they and the now caucascian costume originate in the northwest caucasus , in the steppe areas,, and were spread by these folks who worked as mercinaries in the other states , aswell as being used as janissaries by the turks and such , the style seems to have spread quite rapidly , because the circassian culture spread these elerments to quite some areas , and the cossaks spead them also ,
the costumes and horse tricks are not mountian folks traditions,, but have been adopted from influence,

Rivkin · 13th August 2006, 07:26 PM

Well, I still think it is very hard to say where what originated. I never seen a definite data that would suggest circassians as inventors of dress/kindjal etc. I think all of these is somewhat of an obscure topic. Astvatsaturjan did offer no clue on these questions, I have high hopes that we will be able to get the answer from someone else - I have high hopes that Cholokashvili and other people from Janashia may go down to our level and say something on this issue.

ausjulius · 13th August 2006, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Well, I still think it is very hard to say where what originated. I never seen a definite data that would suggest circassians as inventors of dress/kindjal etc. I think all of these is somewhat of an obscure topic. Astvatsaturjan did offer no clue on these questions, I have high hopes that we will be able to get the answer from someone else - I have high hopes that Cholokashvili and other people from Janashia may go down to our level and say something on this issue.

indeed, still it is common knowlage amongst the folks here that the costume and shashka/kindjal and leather covered pistol brace is from the circassians, even in the 1800s the shashka was still not the most common sword in these parts,, and the shashka and kindjal forms derive from the same use of acrobatic riding techniques and aand weapon trichs of the north west caucasus , and these have spread down , not to say that the larger kindjals did not orignate in some other area,, ,
but the original costume of the other areas of the caucasus has changed in the last 250 years or so ,, and takes the aydge and circassian style,, originaly the mountian folks coustme was far more straterfied, and complex,,
the circassian costume is a simple military one ,

Rivkin · 13th August 2006, 10:23 PM

No arguments concerning shashka. Kindjals is a different issue alltogether. "Common knowledge" concerning kindjals is very different in different areas, north vs. south. Larger kindjals are more charateristic towards the south, yet I have seen some monstrous examples on photographs of ossetians. Don't think that they descent from something very different than "normal" kindjals. I would guess that the source is the same; however, I would guess even russian royal collections can not shed any light on really old kindjals, since they are mostly composed of very late examples, donated to russian high notables.

The same goes for niello - it has been long noticed that "circassian" niello is extremely similar to some very high quality examples of extremely old islamic niello works, yet again, besides areas surrounding Caucasus one can not find something quite similar. Did it come from south and died out everywhere but in Caucasus ? Or was it originally developed in Caucasus and sold everywhere else ? I don't know.

The Double D · 14th August 2006, 04:47 AM

The last thing for me Gentlemen is an anlysis of the pictures I took of two kindjals I saw in a local antique shop. I don't own these knives and as of last week they were no longer in the shop.

The first is a black handle with sheath.

To me this knife looks very new. The hilt or handle looks moulded as does the side panel, the pierceings look out of place. This looks like a fairly modern made piece to me, How do you gentlemen see it?

ausjulius · 14th August 2006, 04:57 AM

[QUOTE=
The same goes for niello - it has been long noticed that "circassian" niello is extremely similar to some very high quality examples of extremely old islamic niello works, yet again, besides areas surrounding Caucasus one can not find something quite similar. Did it come from south and died out everywhere but in Caucasus ? Or was it originally developed in Caucasus and sold everywhere else ? I don't know.[/QUOTE]

hi rivkin, you are correct, in that although many things can be presumed there is little one could say for shure...

the problem is with the nature of the caucascian people them selves, there has been little or no local documentation of the local history,,
and many nationalities possessed no written text even 150 years ago,,
also the religious and political and social systems were vry unstable ,, and fluctuated frequently,, sometime back form ecsample the chechens were christians for the most part,,,,,,,,, then they dropped the religion and wholely took up there local religion again ,, then finaly the converted to moslems,, this has been a common theem amongst many nationalities,, they change greatly fomr centuary to centuary..

13th August 2006, 04:24 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	"kindjal-tricks" are surprisingly essentially the same among south and north caucasians. I would guess there are a few "weird" styles that are different (like blind fight in the south), but the basic styles are the same. You are completely right that no one really looked into it; if its northern iran (i.e. turkish tribes of Azerbaijan), I would see a problem with distinguishing their influence from the influence of other turkoman, timurid etc tribes. Arab influence was strong in Georgia in 7th-9th centuries, but slowly died out since. The problem essentially that besides territories that georgraphically surround Caucasus (Lazika, Azerbaijan, Balkans) no one has this weapon.

13th August 2006, 07:26 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, I still think it is very hard to say where what originated. I never seen a definite data that would suggest circassians as inventors of dress/kindjal etc. I think all of these is somewhat of an obscure topic. Astvatsaturjan did offer no clue on these questions, I have high hopes that we will be able to get the answer from someone else - I have high hopes that Cholokashvili and other people from Janashia may go down to our level and say something on this issue.

13th August 2006, 10:23 PM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	No arguments concerning shashka. Kindjals is a different issue alltogether. "Common knowledge" concerning kindjals is very different in different areas, north vs. south. Larger kindjals are more charateristic towards the south, yet I have seen some monstrous examples on photographs of ossetians. Don't think that they descent from something very different than "normal" kindjals. I would guess that the source is the same; however, I would guess even russian royal collections can not shed any light on really old kindjals, since they are mostly composed of very late examples, donated to russian high notables. The same goes for niello - it has been long noticed that "circassian" niello is extremely similar to some very high quality examples of extremely old islamic niello works, yet again, besides areas surrounding Caucasus one can not find something quite similar. Did it come from south and died out everywhere but in Caucasus ? Or was it originally developed in Caucasus and sold everywhere else ? I don't know.

14th August 2006, 04:47 AM	#7
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	The last thing for me Gentlemen is an anlysis of the pictures I took of two kindjals I saw in a local antique shop. I don't own these knives and as of last week they were no longer in the shop. The first is a black handle with sheath. To me this knife looks very new. The hilt or handle looks moulded as does the side panel, the pierceings look out of place. This looks like a fairly modern made piece to me, How do you gentlemen see it?

14th August 2006, 04:57 AM	#8
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 444	[QUOTE= The same goes for niello - it has been long noticed that "circassian" niello is extremely similar to some very high quality examples of extremely old islamic niello works, yet again, besides areas surrounding Caucasus one can not find something quite similar. Did it come from south and died out everywhere but in Caucasus ? Or was it originally developed in Caucasus and sold everywhere else ? I don't know.[/QUOTE] hi rivkin, you are correct, in that although many things can be presumed there is little one could say for shure... the problem is with the nature of the caucascian people them selves, there has been little or no local documentation of the local history,, and many nationalities possessed no written text even 150 years ago,, also the religious and political and social systems were vry unstable ,, and fluctuated frequently,, sometime back form ecsample the chechens were christians for the most part,,,,,,,,, then they dropped the religion and wholely took up there local religion again ,, then finaly the converted to moslems,, this has been a common theem amongst many nationalities,, they change greatly fomr centuary to centuary..