Meteorite Dagger?

[Jeff Pringle]

Yes, that blade had 2 patterned pieces of 50% meteorite material sandwitching a piece w/o meteorite. The light layers are pretty much all E.T., and the main thing I noticed while making the blade was how easily Campo Del Cielo forges together, compared to other irons.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'effects on layering,' though, can you be more specific?
If meteoric nickel was all they had to bring out high contrast in the old blades, I bet the ET metal is not very diluted - in the light layers of the pamor.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

I'm not sure what you mean by 'effects on layering,' though, can you be more specific?

It is my understanding that the cause of pamor is due to the “layers” of nickel and iron (and steel). When stained, the solution of arsenic and lime juice turns the iron black and the nickel remains basically unstained. When creating a mixture of “iron” and meteorite, what happens to the nickel in the process… does it “mix” or does it tend to separate and create “bands” of nickel in the iron (making its own pamor)?

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

It is my understanding that the cause of pamor is due to the “layers” of nickel and iron (and steel). When stained, the solution of arsenic and lime juice turns the iron black and the nickel remains basically unstained. When creating a mixture of “iron” and meteorite, what happens to the nickel in the process… does it “mix” or does it tend to separate and create “bands” of nickel in the iron (making its own pamor)?

While nickel is certainly used as a pamor material and gives quite a better contrast i just wanted to remind everyone once again of the work of Professor Jerzy Piaskowski who determined that many old keris may have used no nickel whatsoever and achieved pamor contrast through the use of different types of iron that i believe may have had different phosphorous levels that create the contrast. I think that perhaps Alan Maisey can address your last question (certainly more accurately than i could ) and perhaps follow up a little on Piaskowski's work with keris materials.

[BSMStar]

You are absolutely correct nechesh... my fault for being focused on the meteorite/nickel iron subject, dealing with the knife that Jeff made. My Pajajaran is nickel "free" and made of contrasting iron alloys. Thanks for keeping me honest.

Originally Posted by BSMStar

With the Keris, I have always wondered… how did the method of folding two alloys come into being? The very early Keris did not contain nickel, and relied on two alloys of iron.

A quote from earlier in the thread... to prove I am getting senile.... at least in my focus.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

A quote from earlier in the thread... to prove I am getting senile.... at least in my focus.

LOL!

[A. G. Maisey]

The most common method of making pamor with nickel is to take a paper thin piece of nickel, sandwich it between two layers of iron and forge weld it. You take four of these little billets and weld them together, then you forge out and double over and weld until you have 128 nominal layers of nickel.
In the finished pamor the nickel layers are quite distinct. The nickel does not melt into the iron, it stays as distinct layers of material. Probably the easiest way to think of the mix of nickel and iron, is that the iron acts as "glue" to hold the layers of nickel together.Accordingly, if you can find a relatively wide band of nickel, you have a pretty large area that could be tested.

I`m sorry, I cannot expand further on Prof Jerzy Piaskowski's work. It is highly technical, and his two largest papers have not yet been published. I am only aware of the content because I have worked with him advising on strictly keris and cultural matters, since about 1988.

[BSMStar]

I understand Alan, and I have not read Prof Piaskowski's work.

My question is regarding the iron-nickel alloys in the meteorite material (my apology for not beening clear).

In Iron Meteorites, there are two major alloys of iron-nickel:

Kamacite: a solid solution of around 7.5% nickel.
Taenite: a solid solution of more than 25 percent nickel.

There are also the possibilities of having Iron Carbides - solid solutions of Fe, Ni & Co with Carbon, such as Cohenite and Haxonite. But let us ignore those for the moment. If I recall, iron and nickel are always alloyed together unless in oxide or silicate form – in meteorites.

My question was, what happens to these concentrations of iron-nickel on forging and folding? Do they leave a pattern that would be pamor like? Or do they simply mix and are indistinguishable (in the iron and meteorite mix- if you were to make a blade from this material alone)?