12th-13th Century Jinete Swords?

[anoakenstaff]

Salaams, all.

I've been a lurker for a few years, and I wanted to make an account to ask about a couple things I thought were related enough to fit in one thread.

Firstly, what information do we have on jineta, or 'proto-jineta’ swords in the 1100s and 1200s? I know there’s very few surviving relevant swords for this period, including the ones Nicolle covers and the one in the ‘Identificacion de una espada jineta de guerra’ paper, but my knowledge is very lacking beyond the few papers, so I would love to know if there have been any other extants found, or more research published.

Secondly, I have been trying to write for a while on the sword found on this 13th-century French effigy of a knight of the d’Alluye family. While I have found some interesting similar features on European effigies or art (such as the pommel on the effigy of Hasculf de Subligny), the idea of this sword having been a jineta seems to have been raised and gone unanswered on the forum earlier, so I wanted to include that in case any forum members might have information that might relate this to a Spanish purchase or such. I’m particularly curious about the scabbard arrangement, I don't recall ever seeing anything quite like this before.

Photo from: https://www.metmuseum.org/perspectiv...ndering-knight

[Ian]

Hello anoakenstaff,

Welcome to the Forums here. Both of your questions relate to European arms in an historical context. I think you will find more information among those who frequent the European Armoury forum, so I'm transferring your request for information over there.

Regards,

Ian.

[Jim McDougall]

Just wanted to welcome you to the forum, and you have brought up a most esoteric and fascinating topic! While I cannot answer without further research at the moment, I just wanted to note I am most interested and will respond as I can. Meanwhile there are some here who have keen expertise, but the forum has been very quiet of late, so I dont want you to get discouraged and leave OK.

The fact that you mention Nicolle is a strong indicator you have already done serious research on this topic, so game on!

All best regards
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

I am working on finding answers here, but still have to get to main references not at hand at the moment.
Apparently (per the link) the effigy which has the likeness of the sword in question was of a one of the warriors/knights of the d'Alluye family in a tomb in the Cistercian abbey of La Ciarte-Dieu in Touraine who lived 1248-1267.

As noted by Helmut Nickel (1991) the trilobate pommel is contrary to those of most European swords on these times, and the influence seems to come more likely from Chinese sources. At this point I am inclined to agree as Nickel was one of the top authorities (IMO) on these topics. Still there are always those anomalies which of course did occur.

The 'jinete' were of course cavalry, mounted warriors whose influence had come from Moroccan regions from the initial incursions of Muslim forces c. 711AD.
and situated primarily in al-Andalus Granada in SE Spain. The conflicts with Castilian forces known vaguely as the Reconquista began shortly later but did not reach notable traction until the 1200s.

While the 'jinete' style and influence was indeed Muslim and from these early warriors, it naturally impacted the forces of Spain. Ironically, despite the portrayal of El Cid (1943-1099) as the hero of the Reconquista in his time, like many crusaders, as a mercenary he fought on the side of Muslims at some points.

The Spanish forces used foreign mercenaries in their armies, and according to Arnold Blumberg, writing in "Medieval Warfare" ("The Hundred Years War in Spain" , Vol.3, #1, 2013, pp.18-21) the Christian leaders of Spain used foreign mercenaries, mostly from France, starting about late 11th c.

Given these circumstances, it does not seem that French mercenaries would have used 'Spanish' forms of weapon, however it would seem possible that they might have brought back Spanish types returning to France.
That leaves us trying to discover any examples of Spanish arms of the period in early 1200s which might have this trilobate pommel.

It seems there is an article by Nicolle, on two swords found in Gibraltar, which I am trying to locate, as well as his 2 volume reference. Im not sure Calvert ("Spanish Arms& Armor" would have anything).

Until later, great topic. Hope you're still here.