Montmorency blade in late 18th c. British military swords

Jim McDougall · 19th August 2025, 03:44 PM

In a concurrent thread a British fighting saber with brass hilt and fluted ebony grip was brought up. This is identical to one I have by Wooley& Deakin, generally presumed as partners from 1801-1803 (some research somewhat expands this). Another by the same partners is known, along with one shown by Wilkinson by Durs Egg.

A key element in the James Wooley (Birmingham) examples is the use of the blade in the 'montmorency' type cross section. This seems to have originated in France in earlier in the 18th c. but seems to have been obscure until about 1780s.

Its primary advantage is the hollowed faces (pan creux)were of course great for lighter blade, but only the single stiffened edge for support. The montmorency added an extra back fuller, for notably more strengthened support. During the Revolutionary years there seems to have been some crude wartime production which advanced, and it seems that there was a regiment of chausseurs who had these (may have been 2nd?) around 1799.

This unit may have been titled 'Montmorency'? but as yet no details, nor whether perhaps the lame a' la montmorency took its name from them. There were notables in France earlier in the century by that name but nothing suggesting any particular maker of blades might have created this novel idea for a single edged blade.

The production of blades about the time of the outbreak was 1789, and advanced into the years IX and XI (1801-1803) with this cross section becoming even more popular by 1820s patterns of military sabers.

The conundrum is this. James Wooley of Birmingham was producing swords in the 1780s, and in his examples of the M1788 light cavalry saber compared to those of the notable Thomas Wooley showed his favor of French affinities in his hilt form (Gills favored German) .

More importantly in our case of discussion, his M1788 had the 'montmorency' blade, and while yet uncertain it seems some of the long British dragoon straight swords had blades of this section as well. I do not recall if they were by Wooley.

Then we come to the interesting fighting sabers by Wooley (&Deakin) which again reflect Wooley's affinity for French style, the fluted ebony grips and of course, again, Montmorency blades. These do not seem to be 'one off' though not a 'pattern', but must have had a reasonable run for naval officers. It is well known that stirrup hilt 'fighting swords' were popular in naval context in this early 19th c period.

So my questions are"

WHY are they termed montmorency? were they designed by someone with that name? when?

Why was James Wooley so aligned with French designs etc. ?

Were there indeed earlier (1770s) straight blade cavalry swords with this section on blades? were any by Wooley?

Could the term montmorency derive from the unit of chausseurs in France?
Certainly that could be the case as colloquialisms do tend to come from such associations.
Likely the blade form was in use long before Wooley used them etc. and perhaps some other more technical term used?

These are my quandaries on this dilemma, and while my search goes on, I'd sure appreciate some other input. Thanks guys.

Left : the 1800 fighting saber

rt: the Wooley M1788

Norman McCormick · 19th August 2025, 05:35 PM

Hi Jim,
Here is some info which may be useful. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ht=montmorency

Regards,
Norman.

midelburgo · 19th August 2025, 09:54 PM

If we believe the inscription, this is the oldest Montmorency blade I know of.

On one side it says

NADIE SE META CONMIGO - AÑO DE 1700
QUE MATARE A QUEIN ME ENFADE

QUEIN spell mistake instead for QUIEN

Meaning

NO ONE MESS WITH ME - YEAR OF 1700
I WILL KILL WHOEVER MAKES ME ANGRY

Stilistically I believe the inscription looks rather 1770. I cannot give an opinion about the basket, looking English to me.

On the other hand, Spain used a lot of these blades. Often in America. Sometimes they have silver parts in the grip-pommel. In the Halbach (Solingen) advertisement of 1775 there is a Montmorency with inscriptions to Carlos III (check Halbach in the search). Sometimes they are shortened for infantry.

George Washington had a Montmorency too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiClfS5MfI0

Jim McDougall · 19th August 2025, 10:42 PM

Thanks very much guys!! Norman that was a great thread, and love those plates (either Aries or Petard) both valuable and hard to find, afford, volumes.
Midelburgo, great examples,
It seems this type of blade with this section were around from early in 18th c. so we know they found notable use,
'but the pressing question is WHY MONTMORENCY?
The name of the design.

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2026, 01:31 PM

bump

Pertinax · 14th February 2026, 08:57 PM

Hi Jim!

I've shown you this saber before.

Saber of an officer of the Royal Guard of Spain 1833

werecow · 14th February 2026, 09:27 PM

Anno 18833? It's a future sword!

Pertinax · 14th February 2026, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

Anno 18833? It's a future sword!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29633

Will M · Yesterday, 06:00 PM

Here's my Woolley.

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 07:11 PM

Yuri, thank you so much!!! beautiful Spanish saber!

Will, it seems like Wooley always favored the Montmorency blade cross section on his M1788 lt. cav. sabers, while Gill in same model preferred the hollow ground more standard cavalry blades typical of Solingen in these times which were curved.
It seems curious that Yuri's example with Weyersberg stamp at forte is Montmorency, which seems atypical of Solingen.

Bryce · Yesterday, 10:01 PM

G'day Jim,
I can't help you with where the term "Montmorency" came from, but I can say that the style of blade you are referring to was very common on British swords, both straight and curved from at least as early as 1780 thru to the 1790's. Yes Wooley made blades like this, but so too did every other maker. There are plenty of examples around by Gill and Runkel etc.
Cheers,
Bryce

Radboud · Yesterday, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Yuri, thank you so much!!! beautiful Spanish saber!

Will, it seems like Wooley always favored the Montmorency blade cross section on his M1788 lt. cav. sabers, while Gill in same model preferred the hollow ground more standard cavalry blades typical of Solingen in these times which were curved.
It seems curious that Yuri's example with Weyersberg stamp at forte is Montmorency, which seems atypical of Solingen.

All the Runkel supplied 1788s I have seen use Montmorency blades, this is my example:

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 11:18 PM

Bryce and Radboud, thanks guys.....once again Im chasin zebras when I hear hoofbeats

. The 'montmorency' mystery remains.

Will M · Yesterday, 11:33 PM

I have compared my Woolley sword with my 1796 LC trooper sword and other than the blade being longer and not as wide the curvature is very similar.

19th August 2025, 03:44 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,802	Montmorency blade in late 18th c. British military swords In a concurrent thread a British fighting saber with brass hilt and fluted ebony grip was brought up. This is identical to one I have by Wooley& Deakin, generally presumed as partners from 1801-1803 (some research somewhat expands this). Another by the same partners is known, along with one shown by Wilkinson by Durs Egg. A key element in the James Wooley (Birmingham) examples is the use of the blade in the 'montmorency' type cross section. This seems to have originated in France in earlier in the 18th c. but seems to have been obscure until about 1780s. Its primary advantage is the hollowed faces (pan creux)were of course great for lighter blade, but only the single stiffened edge for support. The montmorency added an extra back fuller, for notably more strengthened support. During the Revolutionary years there seems to have been some crude wartime production which advanced, and it seems that there was a regiment of chausseurs who had these (may have been 2nd?) around 1799. This unit may have been titled 'Montmorency'? but as yet no details, nor whether perhaps the lame a' la montmorency took its name from them. There were notables in France earlier in the century by that name but nothing suggesting any particular maker of blades might have created this novel idea for a single edged blade. The production of blades about the time of the outbreak was 1789, and advanced into the years IX and XI (1801-1803) with this cross section becoming even more popular by 1820s patterns of military sabers. The conundrum is this. James Wooley of Birmingham was producing swords in the 1780s, and in his examples of the M1788 light cavalry saber compared to those of the notable Thomas Wooley showed his favor of French affinities in his hilt form (Gills favored German) . More importantly in our case of discussion, his M1788 had the 'montmorency' blade, and while yet uncertain it seems some of the long British dragoon straight swords had blades of this section as well. I do not recall if they were by Wooley. Then we come to the interesting fighting sabers by Wooley (&Deakin) which again reflect Wooley's affinity for French style, the fluted ebony grips and of course, again, Montmorency blades. These do not seem to be 'one off' though not a 'pattern', but must have had a reasonable run for naval officers. It is well known that stirrup hilt 'fighting swords' were popular in naval context in this early 19th c period. So my questions are" WHY are they termed montmorency? were they designed by someone with that name? when? Why was James Wooley so aligned with French designs etc. ? Were there indeed earlier (1770s) straight blade cavalry swords with this section on blades? were any by Wooley? Could the term montmorency derive from the unit of chausseurs in France? Certainly that could be the case as colloquialisms do tend to come from such associations. Likely the blade form was in use long before Wooley used them etc. and perhaps some other more technical term used? These are my quandaries on this dilemma, and while my search goes on, I'd sure appreciate some other input. Thanks guys. Left : the 1800 fighting saber rt: the Wooley M1788 Attached Images

19th August 2025, 09:54 PM	#3
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 290	If we believe the inscription, this is the oldest Montmorency blade I know of. On one side it says NADIE SE META CONMIGO - AÑO DE 1700 QUE MATARE A QUEIN ME ENFADE QUEIN spell mistake instead for QUIEN Meaning NO ONE MESS WITH ME - YEAR OF 1700 I WILL KILL WHOEVER MAKES ME ANGRY Stilistically I believe the inscription looks rather 1770. I cannot give an opinion about the basket, looking English to me. On the other hand, Spain used a lot of these blades. Often in America. Sometimes they have silver parts in the grip-pommel. In the Halbach (Solingen) advertisement of 1775 there is a Montmorency with inscriptions to Carlos III (check Halbach in the search). Sometimes they are shortened for infantry. George Washington had a Montmorency too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiClfS5MfI0 Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 19th August 2025 at 10:17 PM.

14th February 2026, 08:57 PM	#6
Pertinax Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: City by the Black Sea Posts: 332	Hi Jim! I've shown you this saber before. Saber of an officer of the Royal Guard of Spain 1833 Attached Images

Yesterday, 06:00 PM	#9
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 422	Here's my Woolley. Attached Images

19th August 2025, 05:35 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,653	Hi Jim, Here is some info which may be useful. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ht=montmorency Regards, Norman.

19th August 2025, 10:42 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,802	Thanks very much guys!! Norman that was a great thread, and love those plates (either Aries or Petard) both valuable and hard to find, afford, volumes. Midelburgo, great examples, It seems this type of blade with this section were around from early in 18th c. so we know they found notable use, 'but the pressing question is WHY MONTMORENCY? The name of the design.

13th February 2026, 01:31 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,802	bump

14th February 2026, 09:27 PM	#7
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 646	Anno 18833? It's a future sword!

Yesterday, 07:11 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,802	Yuri, thank you so much!!! beautiful Spanish saber! Will, it seems like Wooley always favored the Montmorency blade cross section on his M1788 lt. cav. sabers, while Gill in same model preferred the hollow ground more standard cavalry blades typical of Solingen in these times which were curved. It seems curious that Yuri's example with Weyersberg stamp at forte is Montmorency, which seems atypical of Solingen.

Yesterday, 10:01 PM	#11
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 198	G'day Jim, I can't help you with where the term "Montmorency" came from, but I can say that the style of blade you are referring to was very common on British swords, both straight and curved from at least as early as 1780 thru to the 1790's. Yes Wooley made blades like this, but so too did every other maker. There are plenty of examples around by Gill and Runkel etc. Cheers, Bryce

Yesterday, 11:18 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,802	Bryce and Radboud, thanks guys.....once again Im chasin zebras when I hear hoofbeats . The 'montmorency' mystery remains.

Yesterday, 11:33 PM	#14
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 422	I have compared my Woolley sword with my 1796 LC trooper sword and other than the blade being longer and not as wide the curvature is very similar.