Odd Dimensioned Brit Dawes Bayonet ID

murph21 · 5th December 2025, 06:00 PM

Hoping to get some info on this 1700s British socket bayonet made by Dawes as it appears to have some shorter-than-typical dimensions possibly? Should I assume that means made for a carbine of light infantry-type gun? Doesn't not appear to me it was ever cut down but the underside fullers taper to almost the point of blade. Socket was split at some point. Here are dimensions.

Overall: 16-1/4"
Blade length: 12.5"
Blade width: 1" at widest
Socket length: 3"
Distance to back of sight slot: 1-7/16"
Current inside dia.: 7/8"

I believe the D over 9 on socket refers to the unit or company and/or row/gun numbers but more curious about the markings on the blade below the Dawes makers mark. It is a "4" (could this be a Regiment or is it an inspector's mark?), then a small "0" or "O" and then on the bottom it looks like a broadhead to me. ?? Hard to capture in pics but any info that could tie this to a specific gun, dates (Dawes-made), or a specific regiment (or commercial/militia e.g. non-military sales?) would be interesting. Realize that may be tough though. Found and purchased in US if that helps. Thanks in advance!

Jim McDougall · Today, 01:08 AM

Most interesting Murph!! I know zippety doo dah on bayonets, but you have certainly piqued my interest! You have already pretty much set the scene with your description and synopsis, it is always great when weapons for discussion are posted in this manner.

However, I tried to check resources I have, and while well illustrated, not much text detail. There is apparently a very good reference, I note here just for readers and those interested in going deeper into bayonet collecting in particular sockets.That is "Socket Bayonets in the British Army 1687-1783" by Erik Goldstein (2001) but the ransom is pretty stiff. The reference I used was "Socket Bayonets" by Graham Priest, a great book, but well illustrated though brief descriptions.

From what little I found, it would seem this may well be from the 'short land pattern musket" (2nd Brown Bess pattern) which was introduced in 1760s with 42" stock as opposed to the 62" of the earlier model.

These were .75 cal. smoothbore.

The markings on the blade would be the 4 for viewer, unsure on the dot(?) and the 'broadhead' might be perhaps the broad arrow of the ordnance?
On the socket, the markings correspond to those seen on some of the bayonets shown, with D being the unit, and number the rack or issue number if I understand.

Samuel Dawes was a Birmingham smith well known for producing rank and file weapons from late 1750s-60s and was still active c. 1804 when he had orders for cutlasses that year. He produced a good number of M1796 cavalry swords.

I realize I'm probably 'preaching to the choir' here with all this as you're obviously well informed already, but again just sharing stuff with the readers.

Thanks for sharing this bayonet Murph!

All the best
Jim

PS...going through listings, found a socket bayonet by Dawes with just a 6 on the socket but the blade was 17" so seems to support your original idea this might have been for a carbine, possibly Elliott's? these were c. 1773.
Maybe look for something from them or other light dragoon units being started by 1770s.

murph21 · Today, 04:49 AM

Thanks again Jim for this feedback! (and apologies if this is not the right forum for bayonets). I had gotten some feedback from some other bayonet sites as well so just trying to build my knowledge about them and get a few opinions. The thing that seems to be different with this one is the much shorter blade and the shorter overall length as it seems 21" or so was the "standard" length for most British bayonets. But as you say I think some of the carbines and "lighter" guns maybe had shorter ones?....but it's not real clear from the various reference books I've seen. And yes Dawes did seem to have a pretty long period of production. The broadhead stamp (or whatever it is) is pretty hard to decipher.

Well, as they say...good enough for Government work I guess

Thanks again.

Murph

Jim McDougall · Today, 04:54 PM

You bet Murph! and you've really set my sights on bayonets, which is a field I have neglected entirely in my years of study (many many moons). This is entirely the proper place to study these, it is the period that it is of concern. The objective is to avoid the encroachment of the multitudes of 20th c. bayonets of the world war periods which inevitably drag in militaria and war surplus.
I began my collecting syndrome as a kid prowling through war surplus stores which were everywhere in those days (50s) and I could buy bayonets for a quarter. Little did I know what odyssey had begun!

With bayonets, I knew a bit on plug bayonets, as my late friend Roger Evans wrote the book on them ("The Plug Bayonet", R.D.C.Evans), and these were essentially hunting daggers later so well marked etc.

The ubiquitous 'socket' bayonet however has a degree of literature, but the design is so simple, very hard to distinguish usually aside from, as you note, dimensions.

It seems most of these from the land pattern muskets (I still cant figure what 'land' means.....is it aside from sea?) were in about 16-17" lengths. It makes sense that dragoon carbine use would require shorter versions, as the Elliott mentioned.

That odd mark resembles the broad arrow but it is deformed somewhat.

I broke down and paid the ransom on the bayonet book by Goldstein, you got me goin'! so I'll keep you posted, so to speak.

Best
Jim

Will M · Today, 05:45 PM

I would suggest the reference British & Commonwealth Bayonets by Skennerton and Richardson. Take into account that blade length can vary by manufacturer and by damage and repointing.
The book dates Dawes : S Dawes to 1803, W&S Dawes 1803-1815, S&J Dawes 1813-1815, J Dawes from 1815. It lists a carbine bayonet with 13" blade and 3 1/4" socket. However if your socket is 3" try comparing to nearest blade length to yours.

5th December 2025, 06:00 PM	#1
murph21 Member Join Date: Nov 2025 Posts: 6	Odd Dimensioned Brit Dawes Bayonet ID Hoping to get some info on this 1700s British socket bayonet made by Dawes as it appears to have some shorter-than-typical dimensions possibly? Should I assume that means made for a carbine of light infantry-type gun? Doesn't not appear to me it was ever cut down but the underside fullers taper to almost the point of blade. Socket was split at some point. Here are dimensions. Overall: 16-1/4" Blade length: 12.5" Blade width: 1" at widest Socket length: 3" Distance to back of sight slot: 1-7/16" Current inside dia.: 7/8" I believe the D over 9 on socket refers to the unit or company and/or row/gun numbers but more curious about the markings on the blade below the Dawes makers mark. It is a "4" (could this be a Regiment or is it an inspector's mark?), then a small "0" or "O" and then on the bottom it looks like a broadhead to me. ?? Hard to capture in pics but any info that could tie this to a specific gun, dates (Dawes-made), or a specific regiment (or commercial/militia e.g. non-military sales?) would be interesting. Realize that may be tough though. Found and purchased in US if that helps. Thanks in advance! Attached Images

Today, 01:08 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,706	Most interesting Murph!! I know zippety doo dah on bayonets, but you have certainly piqued my interest! You have already pretty much set the scene with your description and synopsis, it is always great when weapons for discussion are posted in this manner. However, I tried to check resources I have, and while well illustrated, not much text detail. There is apparently a very good reference, I note here just for readers and those interested in going deeper into bayonet collecting in particular sockets.That is "Socket Bayonets in the British Army 1687-1783" by Erik Goldstein (2001) but the ransom is pretty stiff. The reference I used was "Socket Bayonets" by Graham Priest, a great book, but well illustrated though brief descriptions. From what little I found, it would seem this may well be from the 'short land pattern musket" (2nd Brown Bess pattern) which was introduced in 1760s with 42" stock as opposed to the 62" of the earlier model. These were .75 cal. smoothbore. The markings on the blade would be the 4 for viewer, unsure on the dot(?) and the 'broadhead' might be perhaps the broad arrow of the ordnance? On the socket, the markings correspond to those seen on some of the bayonets shown, with D being the unit, and number the rack or issue number if I understand. Samuel Dawes was a Birmingham smith well known for producing rank and file weapons from late 1750s-60s and was still active c. 1804 when he had orders for cutlasses that year. He produced a good number of M1796 cavalry swords. I realize I'm probably 'preaching to the choir' here with all this as you're obviously well informed already, but again just sharing stuff with the readers. Thanks for sharing this bayonet Murph! All the best Jim PS...going through listings, found a socket bayonet by Dawes with just a 6 on the socket but the blade was 17" so seems to support your original idea this might have been for a carbine, possibly Elliott's? these were c. 1773. Maybe look for something from them or other light dragoon units being started by 1770s. Last edited by Jim McDougall; Today at 01:32 AM.

Today, 04:49 AM	#3
murph21 Member Join Date: Nov 2025 Posts: 6	Thanks again Jim for this feedback! (and apologies if this is not the right forum for bayonets). I had gotten some feedback from some other bayonet sites as well so just trying to build my knowledge about them and get a few opinions. The thing that seems to be different with this one is the much shorter blade and the shorter overall length as it seems 21" or so was the "standard" length for most British bayonets. But as you say I think some of the carbines and "lighter" guns maybe had shorter ones?....but it's not real clear from the various reference books I've seen. And yes Dawes did seem to have a pretty long period of production. The broadhead stamp (or whatever it is) is pretty hard to decipher. Well, as they say...good enough for Government work I guess Thanks again. Murph

Today, 04:54 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,706	You bet Murph! and you've really set my sights on bayonets, which is a field I have neglected entirely in my years of study (many many moons). This is entirely the proper place to study these, it is the period that it is of concern. The objective is to avoid the encroachment of the multitudes of 20th c. bayonets of the world war periods which inevitably drag in militaria and war surplus. I began my collecting syndrome as a kid prowling through war surplus stores which were everywhere in those days (50s) and I could buy bayonets for a quarter. Little did I know what odyssey had begun! With bayonets, I knew a bit on plug bayonets, as my late friend Roger Evans wrote the book on them ("The Plug Bayonet", R.D.C.Evans), and these were essentially hunting daggers later so well marked etc. The ubiquitous 'socket' bayonet however has a degree of literature, but the design is so simple, very hard to distinguish usually aside from, as you note, dimensions. It seems most of these from the land pattern muskets (I still cant figure what 'land' means.....is it aside from sea?) were in about 16-17" lengths. It makes sense that dragoon carbine use would require shorter versions, as the Elliott mentioned. That odd mark resembles the broad arrow but it is deformed somewhat. I broke down and paid the ransom on the bayonet book by Goldstein, you got me goin'! so I'll keep you posted, so to speak. Best Jim

Today, 05:45 PM	#5
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 416	I would suggest the reference British & Commonwealth Bayonets by Skennerton and Richardson. Take into account that blade length can vary by manufacturer and by damage and repointing. The book dates Dawes : S Dawes to 1803, W&S Dawes 1803-1815, S&J Dawes 1813-1815, J Dawes from 1815. It lists a carbine bayonet with 13" blade and 3 1/4" socket. However if your socket is 3" try comparing to nearest blade length to yours.