Knife with a Spanish Influence?

Lee · Yesterday, 04:13 PM

I acquired this knife in 1973 in a general antiques shop in Laguna Beach, California for $75, described on the receipt as a "Spanish knife" and presented, if I recall correctly, as a relic of Old California. The blade is 13½ inches long. The grip is well carved dark horn with a brass ferrule and figural cap. The sheath is not original to this knife, as the knife only fits in backwards and opposite to the implied geometry of the sheath mouth. I solicit your opinions on where and when it is actually from.

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 05:45 PM

As always repurposed and ersatz alterations are hard to peg, and often reliable provenance are the best ways to try to estimate. The hilt, and guard seem like earlier hunting hangers around mid 18th c. and for that matter the remains of forte motif seem to suggest same.
What seems to suggest the Spanish influence is the slight uptick in the clipped type point, often derisively termed the 'frog sticker' by frontiersmen in the 19th c. ..a feature often seen on espada anchas of Mexican period post 1821.

The face on the pommel cap suggests probably British or possibly German hilt.

Lots of unique shops in Labeena Gooch (as we called it in the day) and one of my first 'Spanish colonial' swords was an old dragoon sword, in a boutique window, but festooned with costume jewelry necklaces. As I looked at it, with the blade and 'Spanish motto" ...draw me not without reason...... I was horrified at the disgrace. I bought it for a paltry sum from the owner who saw only a dark old sword, rather than the blade of honor of a now long gone caballero.

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 05:50 PM

As always repurposed and ersatz alterations are hard to peg, and often reliable provenance are the best ways to try to estimate. The hilt, and guard seem like earlier hunting hangers around mid 18th c. and for that matter the remains of forte motif seem to suggest same.
What seems to suggest the Spanish influence is the slight uptick in the clipped type point, often derisively termed the 'frog sticker' by frontiersmen in the 19th c. ..a feature often seen on espada anchas of Mexican period post 1821.

The face on the pommel cap suggests probably British or possibly German hilt.

Lots of unique shops in Labeena Gooch (as we called it in the day) and one of my first 'Spanish colonial' swords was an old dragoon sword, in a boutique window, but festooned with costume jewelry necklaces. As I looked at it, with the blade and 'Spanish motto" ...draw me not without reason...... I was horrified at the disgrace. I bought it for a paltry sum from the owner who saw only a dark old sword, rather than the blade of honor of a now long gone caballero.

RobT · Today, 01:28 AM

Hi Lee,

The sheath is northern Philippine without doubt (Vasayan IIRC). If you are interested, I can post examples in my collection. I see nothing about the dagger itself that is inconsistent with the same area. This would also account for the "Spanish attribution. What is also interesting is the clip point. Since the blade appears to pre-date WWII, this is further evidence that the Philippine Bowie existed as a type before the war and wasn't just created as a souvenir created for US servicemen.

Sincerely,
RobT

Ian · Today, 07:27 AM

Hi Rob and Lee,

Interesting knife, Lee. I agree that there is a Spanish flavor to it. The short brass cross-guard with terminal balls plus a horn hilt is very consistent with a Spanish origin.

The sheath is reminiscent of Philippine models. However, the decoration at the throat of the sheath does not look Filipino to me. Rob has suggested a northern Luzon origin, and I think he is referring to Ilokano sheaths that are often black. But this is not an Ilokano sheath--the style is wrong IMHO. I think the motifs on th sheath and the treatment of the sheath's tip are more likely Mexican colonial in style. The fact that the knife does not fit the sheath makes the sheath somewhat moot, and perhaps culturally unrelated to the knife.

"Spanish colonial" seems a good designation for the knife.

Jim McDougall · Today, 06:27 PM

I think one of the more overlooked elements of influence in Spanish America is the profound trade networks that operated via the Philippines, the Sandwich Islands (Hawaii) and Acapulco, San Blas and San Francisco. The 'Manila galleons' prevailed through the 18th century, but diminished with Mexican independence.
In the active period the 'Spanish Main' remained the conduit for many Asian/Oriental influences, and most certainly from the Philippines. I have seen various Spanish material culture of 18th century with notably oriental, specifically Chinese, decoration.

It becomes very difficult to assert classification or regional assessment to items such as this knife when the confluence of styles, features and design is notably diverse. Without exact provenance, speculation is just that, and the only responsible way to represent the weapon is to include the various factors considered.

Yesterday, 04:13 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 971	Knife with a Spanish Influence? I acquired this knife in 1973 in a general antiques shop in Laguna Beach, California for $75, described on the receipt as a "Spanish knife" and presented, if I recall correctly, as a relic of Old California. The blade is 13½ inches long. The grip is well carved dark horn with a brass ferrule and figural cap. The sheath is not original to this knife, as the knife only fits in backwards and opposite to the implied geometry of the sheath mouth. I solicit your opinions on where and when it is actually from. Attached Images

Today, 01:28 AM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 571	Philippine Hi Lee, The sheath is northern Philippine without doubt (Vasayan IIRC). If you are interested, I can post examples in my collection. I see nothing about the dagger itself that is inconsistent with the same area. This would also account for the "Spanish attribution. What is also interesting is the clip point. Since the blade appears to pre-date WWII, this is further evidence that the Philippine Bowie existed as a type before the war and wasn't just created as a souvenir created for US servicemen. Sincerely, RobT

Today, 06:27 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,676	Oriental influences in New Spain I think one of the more overlooked elements of influence in Spanish America is the profound trade networks that operated via the Philippines, the Sandwich Islands (Hawaii) and Acapulco, San Blas and San Francisco. The 'Manila galleons' prevailed through the 18th century, but diminished with Mexican independence. In the active period the 'Spanish Main' remained the conduit for many Asian/Oriental influences, and most certainly from the Philippines. I have seen various Spanish material culture of 18th century with notably oriental, specifically Chinese, decoration. It becomes very difficult to assert classification or regional assessment to items such as this knife when the confluence of styles, features and design is notably diverse. Without exact provenance, speculation is just that, and the only responsible way to represent the weapon is to include the various factors considered.

Yesterday, 05:45 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,676	As always repurposed and ersatz alterations are hard to peg, and often reliable provenance are the best ways to try to estimate. The hilt, and guard seem like earlier hunting hangers around mid 18th c. and for that matter the remains of forte motif seem to suggest same. What seems to suggest the Spanish influence is the slight uptick in the clipped type point, often derisively termed the 'frog sticker' by frontiersmen in the 19th c. ..a feature often seen on espada anchas of Mexican period post 1821. The face on the pommel cap suggests probably British or possibly German hilt. Lots of unique shops in Labeena Gooch (as we called it in the day) and one of my first 'Spanish colonial' swords was an old dragoon sword, in a boutique window, but festooned with costume jewelry necklaces. As I looked at it, with the blade and 'Spanish motto" ...draw me not without reason...... I was horrified at the disgrace. I bought it for a paltry sum from the owner who saw only a dark old sword, rather than the blade of honor of a now long gone caballero.

Yesterday, 05:50 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,676	As always repurposed and ersatz alterations are hard to peg, and often reliable provenance are the best ways to try to estimate. The hilt, and guard seem like earlier hunting hangers around mid 18th c. and for that matter the remains of forte motif seem to suggest same. What seems to suggest the Spanish influence is the slight uptick in the clipped type point, often derisively termed the 'frog sticker' by frontiersmen in the 19th c. ..a feature often seen on espada anchas of Mexican period post 1821. The face on the pommel cap suggests probably British or possibly German hilt. Lots of unique shops in Labeena Gooch (as we called it in the day) and one of my first 'Spanish colonial' swords was an old dragoon sword, in a boutique window, but festooned with costume jewelry necklaces. As I looked at it, with the blade and 'Spanish motto" ...draw me not without reason...... I was horrified at the disgrace. I bought it for a paltry sum from the owner who saw only a dark old sword, rather than the blade of honor of a now long gone caballero.

Today, 07:27 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,535	Hi Rob and Lee, Interesting knife, Lee. I agree that there is a Spanish flavor to it. The short brass cross-guard with terminal balls plus a horn hilt is very consistent with a Spanish origin. The sheath is reminiscent of Philippine models. However, the decoration at the throat of the sheath does not look Filipino to me. Rob has suggested a northern Luzon origin, and I think he is referring to Ilokano sheaths that are often black. But this is not an Ilokano sheath--the style is wrong IMHO. I think the motifs on th sheath and the treatment of the sheath's tip are more likely Mexican colonial in style. The fact that the knife does not fit the sheath makes the sheath somewhat moot, and perhaps culturally unrelated to the knife. "Spanish colonial" seems a good designation for the knife.