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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 228
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I first thought these figures were fish heads and had something to do with marines. But after all these interesting responses I think dragon is also a possibility. Whatever its origin, east or west, there should be some mythical and religious meaning as well as its artistic value.
In janissary insignias one can come across both figures (fish/dragon). These drawings from an early 18th century book and i think these insignias had been in use for some time when this book was first published. Sorry for the low quality of the picture. But you can still see the dragon head pommels of the swords on the top. Fish figures are more obvious.
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chania Crete Greece
Posts: 512
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Beliefs about the existance of dragons are universal!!
You can find myths about dragons from ancient Greek and Norse mythology up to China and pre-columbian america! But what is important here to understand from which area the dragon head arrived in yataghan scabbards, is the style of its artistic representation. The dragons that exist on the janisaries book and on early islamic swords remind the chinese esthetic representation of dragons, while the yataghans have an almost "smilling" dragon which in my opinion relates more with the "sea dragons" that we can see on european maps of 16th -17th century. |
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 692
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Sea dragons on medieval maps are commonly known as whales.
Romans did not use the dragon motif, they used a lot of animals as symbols of their legion stendards but no dragons, as far as I know. |
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#4 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 452
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I think Romans not using dragon is understandable.My suggestion; reptiles in South and East Ajia are bigger and more fearsome,so respected more,and effect people's imagination more than they are in Europe and Mediterennean region.
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA
Posts: 271
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I would have to agree with TVV, dolphin it is to me, and it has been inspired (if not made!) from the more grotesque European stylised animals of the Baroque Era and before. Italians the were champions of such portrays in arms and armour and they traded heavily with the Ottoman Empire and had a profund influence on arts. One can still see similar stuff on every fountain in artsy cities of Europe made before late 19th century.
And rather than being comprehended as a "totemic animal" dolphin was rather a sugestive maritime ornament. Taxonomy was practically inexistent then and knowledge was based more on fabulations and most large "fish" (cetaceans included) were all simply known as sea-monsters, especially outside Europe. Here is an example of such representation: Boy with Dolphin, Dutch 18th century: http://chaudhary.thoughtbot.com/dev/...TAMP1130278229 |
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#6 |
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Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,606
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Thanks Radu. Nice picture to make your point -- looks very similar in style to the ornamentation we are talking about here.
Ian. |
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 452
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I still oppose the dolphin idea,as all of those animals on scabbard tips have skin covered with flakes, some roughly chiselled and some very detailed. Dolphins are mammals,and have very smooth skin as you know.
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#8 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 655
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As one of the examples of dragon motiff I would use so called dragon rugs. While it is not nessesaraly has the same origin for the motiff as weapons, its story is quite interesting - supposedly it started with armenians copying chinese motiffs via the silk road in as early as 15th century; with the spread of armenians dragon rugs penetrate Persia; as with all caucasian carpets originally detailed image of dragon eventeually becomes highly stylized and abstract. So the eastern origin is quite likely ?
Now, rugs is even more nationalistic field than weapons, so you can find alternative explanations, such as these dragons being reflections of swastikas of ancient hurro, urartu or hittite armenians (clue - urartu and hurrian are not even indo european languages, unlike armenian). But I do believe that this might be a dolphin. Last edited by Rivkin; 27th July 2006 at 05:34 PM. |
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