Here is my other hunting sword

[mgolab]

My other hunting sword..."1414" on blade. I have seen the prior posts about such numbers.

[mgolab]

As a follow up, I think that this may be a German hunting sword, 18th century. I am interested in hearing any comments about the lion on the bottom of the hilt, whether this may indicate a certain ruler and/or military issued item.

Thanks

[urbanspaceman]

Hey Jim, are you watching? There's that fox again.
With reference to the history of this sword, I suspect this is a second generation grip. The cap and the peen are indicative of a previous antler grip as per tradition. Nicely done though. Can you tell what it is made of? The shell looks suspicious too. Could this be a complete re-hilting of the blade? Is it usual to see the talismanic numerals on hunting swords?

[mgolab]

if you google "anspach jager sword 18th century" a similar well documented example appears

[mgolab]

see this

http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.12928.html

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks for the link to 'my armoury'...good ole days!

Steyr was an Austrian arms center, it seems mostly for guns, but this obscure entry in Gardner ("Small Arms Makers", 1963) shows this curious RUNNING FOX? as opposed to the chop mark Passau running wolf. It is suggests 1620 period, but without name etc hard to say when or how long this mark was used.

The 1414 is a gemetria oriented 'magic' number combination which seems to have been the most popular, though 1441, and 1515 and some others are known.
Note the fact that the numbers are placed upside down from the orientation of the animal, exactly in the convention used in Solingen with the running wolf. It is unclear why this was done, and if any weapons were from Passau using the wolf and this. While it is called the Passau wolf, I have yet to see a weapon FROM Passau bearing this familiar mark.

The character of this cuttoe is French, probably mid 18th c. by the style of the scallop shell, and again curious to know more on this running fox device which seems to have eluded most of the compendiums on markings as well as how the date of 1620 was arrived at. Even the similar use of this type figure in Shotley Bridge was not until the last part of the 17th into early 18th.

[Jim McDougall]

Regarding the lion on the pommel, doubtful this has any particular value as far as any regal association or military order or unit etc. The lion was of course a ubiquitous figure in heraldry and its devices throughout history. The only way to isolate this instance would be some long poring through heraldry references to find similar renderings.

More likely a metaphoric reference to courage (i.e.heart of a lion etc) or in such manner.

[Hotspur]

Great stuff guys.

Is there a cut off date for the use of the 1414 and 1515 stuff? Other cabalistic traits continue, without these numbers.

I have just one of the eastern European profile but I feel it is petty late in the 18th century.

Cheers
GC

[Jim McDougall]

Good question. I think it went through the 18th pretty well, as these magical conventions kept being applied on blades quite late. Batches of blades with cabalistic numbers, sigils etc. were known as late as 1790s on European swords, many being used in England as well.

Think you're right on the nice example you show. Looks like a weapon in keeping with Pandour features, including the clipped point which Seifert (1962) refers to as a 'Pandour point'. The Pandours were auxiliaries for Maria Theresa forces mid 18th c. who dressed in oriental fashions, styles like long mustaches, scalplocks and fearsome demeanor with oriental (Ottoman etc) type weapons. They became so renegade they were disbanded, but they were quite effective and their character was widely copied in some European armies. This is where the blade decoration 'VIVAT PANDUR' comes in later in the century.

[Triarii]

There's an interesting vid on FB somewhere where a guy puts forward some theories on the 1414 and 1441, including whether they're references to biblical verses, such as Psalm 144:1, which states, "Blessed be the Lord, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle" or the number 4 has significance through eg Ezekial 1:10 which talks about the four faces of God.
Although he says its impossible to come up with a definitive answer, he makes - IMHO - a good point about the Roscrucians who appear in the very early C17th, which is when these numbers seem to appear.
There was a diagram in one of their works which featured the numbers arranged in a square such that that they could be read as 1441 or 1414. Now I have to go and find the vid again.

PS if the numbers are linked to the Rosicrucians, then interest in them reoccurs throughout the C17th and into the late C18th, when they're tied up with the Freemasons.

[urbanspaceman]

This is a very important thread re. talismanic numbers. It appears no-one has fully plumbed these depths. Jim, you were the first person I encountered who suggested talismanic sigils and numerology etc. I know a lot about the so called esoteric so it has never surprised me that, when going into a life and death situation, every little helps. I hope there is more to come Chaps, keep up the good work.

[Hotspur]

There is a thread elsewhere that I had participated in. I hardly remember it but there was some interesting discussion.
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.19581.html


Cheers
GC

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

This is a very important thread re. talismanic numbers. It appears no-one has fully plumbed these depths. Jim, you were the first person I encountered who suggested talismanic sigils and numerology etc. I know a lot about the so called esoteric so it has never surprised me that, when going into a life and death situation, every little helps. I hope there is more to come Chaps, keep up the good work.

Thank you Keith! Indeed, I have ventured into this rabbit hole countless times over decades, and there are few who have queried these matters soundly. Many cursory entries in various works simply shrug off the meanings under the vague 'cabalistic' term, while there are as many cases of tailoring the numbers to important dates or Biblical passages.

There are these references, which I had translations etc years ago but have yet to find them in my maelstrom of decades of notes!!! madness!

"Die Klingenmarke 1414(1441) und Related Numerical Signs"
Walter Rose, ZHWK, Vol.14, #3

"Waffen mit Astral Ogischen und Kabbalistchen Zeichen"
"Count Karl Rambaldi ,
Zeitschrifte fur Historichen Waffen und Kostumkunde (ZHWK)
Vol. 9 p.128-38 (1921-22)

These references cited..... in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" (Eduard Wagner, Prague 1967)

On p.76 Wagner notes the first blades with running wolf (he adds fox=fuchs) popular in England for King James I and courtiers were by Klemens Horn (1580-1630) of Solingen. Not sure how accurate this is as obviously the mark was known in Passau long before, and used spuriously by Solingen.

Wagner goes on to suggest 'magic numbers' associated with certain makers, which seems tenuous at best, but I add it here for reference.
1479...Johannes Wundes
1495...Johannes Kueller
1506...both Meves Berns and Johann Hartkop
1515....Mathias Wundes
1436....Peter Munich

In Hounslow Johann Kindt 1630-40 used running wolf and 1636, which of course may indeed be a date.

Meanwhile most running wolf marks with 'magic numbers' seem to be most ubiquitously 1414, which seem most often suggested as from the Biblical passage from old Testament Job 14:14, "if a man dies, should he live again".
A sound consideration for a blade carried into battle, but as far as its intent...apocryphal at best.
Its palindrome, 1441, also occurs frequently, but only adds to the endless speculation.

Once these numbers became popularized, whatever their original intent might have been, they undoubtedly became moot as far as meaning and became a suggested imbuement of quality, magic or any number of perceptions to potential users of the blade.

The awareness of these numbers being used in this manner may be seen as early as 1836,
"..a sword of the time of William III with Passau wolf blade marked 1414, a manufactory number often mistaken for a date".
"The Gentlemans Magazine" (1836)
I do not have the cite for this, but may be from the Catalog of Doucean Museum, apparently passim.

From p.324 "History of the Huguenot Immigration to America"
Charles W. Baird (1885)
"...the sword of Gabriel Bernin which is in the possession of his ancestor Charles Bernon Allen of Providence, R.I. ....
it bears the figures 1.4.1.4
it is noticeable that the date synchronizes with that of the wars of Burgundy from whom Bernons claim descent. In 1414 John the Intrepid came to Burgundy with 20,000 horse.

There are the Masonic versions, 1441 has to do with the year of appointment of William St. Clair etc.

One version claims 1441 the year of Lutheran martyrdom, but as Martin Luther was not born until after that time, this falls flat. It does however reveal the lengths to which people will go to tailor these numbers to suit their agenda.

The unavoidable fact is that these are typically number combinations used in various applications based on lucky or talismanic numbers in magic or occult esoterica. The cabalistic notions come from the fact that gemetria or the use of alphabet letters with numeric values was part of the coded system.
This carried to the use of acrostics or combining the first letter of each word in a phrase, motto or invocation. In Italy, this practice was well known with letters with letter combinations which when trying to be read conventionally were jibberish, but as acrostics, and the reference phrase known, it was clear what it meant to the initiated.

Well ,for those of you intrepid readers still awake, that is the short version of what arcane notes I have gathered over years on this topic.
There is SO much more to learn!