Unknown brass hilt

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 02:02 PM

Thanks Keith, it is so great you are physically collecting these Shotley examples! Its incredible that you are able to locate these as I had not imagined they would come up that much in auctions etc. but I dont watch auctions much.

Any chance of more detailed images of the sword ?

With these BTF examples, I had not realized how much definite variation exists in the shapes. I wonder if it would be feasible to somehow put together a panel of the variations and ultimately put together some sort of chronology with notes on the examples they have occurred on.

I think this was the goal of Eduard Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons, 1967) with his plate of examples of the 'Passau wolf', where he catalogs examples and tried to put them in a progressive period chronology. While interesting, it was not in my opinion viable as these markings were placed in varied shops by multiple workers, not a progressive evolution in a single source.

By nature, the 'running wolf' has seemed to be rather 'chop' marked in its character with what appears a stylized figure roughly chiseled. However many of the forms seem consistent enough to have been stamped, and almost as if done by the same shop or hand.

I have always believed this 'running wolf' to have been a talismanic or magical imbuement rather than a symbol of quality, and certainly as with most of these kinds of marks or devices directly assigned to any single maker. Again, Wagner and other writers in compendiums of markings have tried to align certain of these familiarly used marks/devices to particular makers, but these were not exclusive to any singular one despite again certain affinity or consistency.

With the bushy tail fox, I think it was likely some sort of play on the running wolf as has long been suggested, but rather than the talismanic character of the German wolf it was indeed a quality representation. While we have agreed it was Oley who either initiated it, or whatever the case, ended up exclusively using it, it has become entirely (and thanks to your research) a symbol of the Shotley enterprise. Though the BTF has long been recognized as associated with Shotley weapons, it does not seem that the connection to Birmingham and of course Samuel Harvey has ever been explored prior to your endeavors.

As we have discussed, the mark of the BTF either with SH within, some cases with H only, and of course the cases where the BTF stands with no initials within. These again are variations to be catalogued and noted with the weapons situated,.

There are cases with the Birmingham blades where no BTF is present and Harvey simply applied his name, and such variation might be attended to blades produced by his son etc. perhaps rather than Oley as presumed, but again..the jury is still out.

In the Nuemann reference (and I will add photos of the two examples) the overall image of the sword is shown, but no detailed image of the blade markings (both apparently BTF as noted). The blades do appear similar to yours with stout hanger.saber character with back fuller, so it would seem of course these blades were of the earlier part of 18th c.

As agreed it does seem that while shops and makers had a large degree of consistency in their products, it was a business and the goal was of course to furnish weapons to make money. As blades were a commodity which was not necessarily exclusive to single shops or cutlers, it would be expected that some measure of stockpiling took place. By the same taken, often components, such as pommels, were supplied by vendors who produced them, and certain variations might occur here as well. The paucity of records of these kinds of details is the bane of those of us researching these matters in our modern time.

urbanspaceman · Yesterday, 08:56 PM

Here are most of the examples of the Bushy Tailed Fox I have either physically acquired or simply copied.
The first image is the small-sword that convinced me that the BTF was actually Oley's mark, because the script of ...TLE xx and BRIDGxx was featured together with a Bushy Tailed Fox for the first (and last) time to date.
This sword was made between late 1687, and 1691, when the second (Williamite) syndicate took control of the works.
Of course they could not monitor every single blade that was forged so it is entirely possible that Oley was slipping out blades to the Jacobites. This one went to George FitzRoy, illegitimate son of King Charles II, Duke of Northumberland and Commander of the 2nd Troop of Horse Guards, part of the King's army.
There are some 1740s/50s cavalry hangers I have observed and not included as they simply echo what is already present. They all feature the BTF seen on the Harvey samples.
The unusual 1750s basket hilt (with the auction house tag on it) was listed as a Royal Welsh Fusiliers Grenadier's sword with ICH DIEN, Prince of Wales feathers and the White Horse of Hanover; the hammer was £11,000 (plus 33% commission); don't ask me why, except two paddles were obviously battling it out.

Yesterday, 02:02 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,399	Thanks Keith, it is so great you are physically collecting these Shotley examples! Its incredible that you are able to locate these as I had not imagined they would come up that much in auctions etc. but I dont watch auctions much. Any chance of more detailed images of the sword ? With these BTF examples, I had not realized how much definite variation exists in the shapes. I wonder if it would be feasible to somehow put together a panel of the variations and ultimately put together some sort of chronology with notes on the examples they have occurred on. I think this was the goal of Eduard Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons, 1967) with his plate of examples of the 'Passau wolf', where he catalogs examples and tried to put them in a progressive period chronology. While interesting, it was not in my opinion viable as these markings were placed in varied shops by multiple workers, not a progressive evolution in a single source. By nature, the 'running wolf' has seemed to be rather 'chop' marked in its character with what appears a stylized figure roughly chiseled. However many of the forms seem consistent enough to have been stamped, and almost as if done by the same shop or hand. I have always believed this 'running wolf' to have been a talismanic or magical imbuement rather than a symbol of quality, and certainly as with most of these kinds of marks or devices directly assigned to any single maker. Again, Wagner and other writers in compendiums of markings have tried to align certain of these familiarly used marks/devices to particular makers, but these were not exclusive to any singular one despite again certain affinity or consistency. With the bushy tail fox, I think it was likely some sort of play on the running wolf as has long been suggested, but rather than the talismanic character of the German wolf it was indeed a quality representation. While we have agreed it was Oley who either initiated it, or whatever the case, ended up exclusively using it, it has become entirely (and thanks to your research) a symbol of the Shotley enterprise. Though the BTF has long been recognized as associated with Shotley weapons, it does not seem that the connection to Birmingham and of course Samuel Harvey has ever been explored prior to your endeavors. As we have discussed, the mark of the BTF either with SH within, some cases with H only, and of course the cases where the BTF stands with no initials within. These again are variations to be catalogued and noted with the weapons situated,. There are cases with the Birmingham blades where no BTF is present and Harvey simply applied his name, and such variation might be attended to blades produced by his son etc. perhaps rather than Oley as presumed, but again..the jury is still out. In the Nuemann reference (and I will add photos of the two examples) the overall image of the sword is shown, but no detailed image of the blade markings (both apparently BTF as noted). The blades do appear similar to yours with stout hanger.saber character with back fuller, so it would seem of course these blades were of the earlier part of 18th c. As agreed it does seem that while shops and makers had a large degree of consistency in their products, it was a business and the goal was of course to furnish weapons to make money. As blades were a commodity which was not necessarily exclusive to single shops or cutlers, it would be expected that some measure of stockpiling took place. By the same taken, often components, such as pommels, were supplied by vendors who produced them, and certain variations might occur here as well. The paucity of records of these kinds of details is the bane of those of us researching these matters in our modern time.