Wooden hilt cup and composite wood hilt

adamb · 11th July 2025, 03:59 AM

On the other matter: has anyone seen a composite wooden hilt before like the one in this Bugis keris in my original post(s)?

And, as Alan points out, the brass collar with the swivel? Is this an unusual feature of Bugis keris?

I've seen broadly similar kinds of metal attachments (sometimes with swivels) on the sheaths of badiks of various kinds from South Sulawesi; typically, these seem to be anchor points to which woven cords used to keep the blade securely housed in the sheath are attached.

cheers
Adam

A. G. Maisey · 13th July 2025, 01:29 AM

Adam, anything is possible.

In so far as societies where many, or perhaps most, of the population subscribe to the concept that we could perhaps refer to as the "magical world view", it can be accepted that the phenomenon of irrational belief is a component part of the fabric of these societies.

I have never been a permanent resident of Jawa, nor of Bali, but I have spent months at a time in both these societies, over a period of many years. During these extended stays, I have experienced & witnessed some occurrences that if measured by the norms of societies in most, if not all of the societies that comprise the "Western World", would be deemed to be creations of an over imaginative mind.

The belief systems that surround the keris, in Jawa in particular, but also in other keris bearing societies, do most definitely fall into the purview of keris understanding.

Thus, when you suggest that the use of wood in a component part of a keris could possibly be talismanic, we could, perhaps, be inclined to accept this suggestion as a possibility, as above:- "anything is possible".

However, if we are to undertake a serious study of the keris, & its place in those societies that hold the keris to be a cultural icon, then I suggest that it might be advisable to limit our understandings of what might be & what might not be considered as having some talismanic or other unseen essence, to those beliefs that already exist in the particular context under consideration.

In other words, do we know of the use of talismanically empowered woods used in items of keris dress? Well, actually we do, but in all cases of which I am aware there would be some visible evidence that indicates the presence of a talismanic value.

If we wish to affix a talismanic value to any object, keris related or otherwise, in the absence of visible evidence of such talismanic value, then perhaps it might be advisable to be able to present a strong argument to support the existence of such value.

There can be no doubt that the keris itself --- by this I mean the blade --- does have beliefs attached to it that can sometimes seem to be "magical".

Some keris literate Javanese people attribute these "magical" beliefs to Dutch & other European influence going back to the early days of European contact when there was still a strong belief in magic in European countries, when witches were burnt, garlic above a doorway kept evil out of the house, and a pinch of salt thrown over the left shoulder kept Satan at bay.

I was taught the salt thing as a child by my grandparents, so this little belief was still alive for some people in the mid 20th century. These grandparents also had a strong belief in the powers of garlic. And Holy Water Fonts.

Yes, the keris is magical, but that magic is anchored in its binding power & the belief that the Keris Pusaka acts as a bond between ancestors who have moved to the Hidden World and the extended family of those ancestors in the current world. It seems that this belief was not always accepted nor understood by those people from outside Javanese & Balinese culture who came in contact with the keris. Even if they were ever made aware of the belief.

adamb · 16th July 2025, 06:48 AM

Thank you Alan, it is most kind of you to share your thoughts on this subject.

with warm regards
Adam

adamb · 24th July 2025, 08:33 AM

For anyone interested in this matter: I removed the hilt from the tang to inspect it closer. The hilt definitely seems to be comprised of at least two distinct kinds of materials: 1) a dark wood with a lustrous, rich grain; 2) smaller elements comprised of what I previously interpreted as a lighter-coloured wood, one with no distinct grain. The two parts have been joined together with glue in an intricate pattern. The hilt cup had been glued to the hilt with some sort of fibrous white adhesive. I scraped away the remnants of the adhesive on both. This revealed that the hilt cup is comprised entirely of some sort of whitish-coloured material that has been coated with what seems to be a dark-coloured lacquer/shellac. The same material is also visible in the composite hilt, suggesting hilt and hilt cup are contemporaneous. I don't know what this whitish material is: I tested it with a red hot needle; the needle went in and the smell I interpret as being earthy/woody. By contrast, I did the same test on an two resin-cast keris hilts: both gave off a strong plastic smell that was distinct from the earthy/woody smell. I also did the needle test on the bone hilt of a mandau, and on a deer antler: in both cases, the hot needle could hardly be pushed in, and the resultant smells were again distinct from the earthy/woody smell. So perhaps it is some kind of soft(ish), light-coloured wood (but if so, I can't see any grain).

A. G. Maisey · 25th July 2025, 12:17 AM

Adam, what I believe I can see at the bottom end of that hilt is a fairly common repair for a cracked hilt, the hilt hole is enlarged, the hilt is compressed to close the cracks, the insert is put in place with a strong adhesive. In the case of your hilt, it appears that the insert has been run through the wooden cup as well.

If a the upper part of a hilt is also badly cracked, or there is a hole through it, usually caused by careless drilling of the tang hole, that insert will be run all the way through the hilt and reshaped into correct form. I suspect something like this could have been done with your hilt.

I note that you are wearing an armour glove. I am aware that some people do wear these when using sharp tools, however, I personally find that I have much better control of power tools & much better feel of traditional manual tools without the glove. Going back to when I was doing a lot of custom knife work there was a bit of a craze for makers to wear these gloves, & at the time it seemed like a good idea, so I gave it a try. I slipped up so many times when using even a single glove that I finally dumped those expensive gloves in the rubbish bin.

adamb · 25th July 2025, 08:34 AM

Sorry Alan, I hope this image is a bit clearer now; the coloured areas in the schematic illustration show the parts of the keris hilt that seem to be comprised of different materials to the richly grained wood (left blank in the schematic). Seems like an extraordinary amount of effort to patch up a damaged hilt.

Regarding the glove (actually very cheap from Bunnings), until I develop a higher level of skill in the use of the very sharp knife I used to scrape away the tough glue, I prefer to keep all my fingers intact! But I appreciate the advice, thank you.

A. G. Maisey · 25th July 2025, 09:50 AM

Thanks for those pics Adam, yes, the various materials used are now quite clear, and you're dead right, it would have been a lot of work, but if one is a skilled worker in wood, such a job would not be at all difficult. For example, my own father was expert in the art of marquetry, and for him, a job like this would be no effort at all. On the other hand, for me it would be very difficult.

If a new hilt is not able to be obtained, the repair of the old hilt is necessary, but in my experience, such a repair would never be done in the areas of SE Asia with which I am familiar.

My opinion is that this hilt was repaired outside the culture of origin of the keris.

I'm pleased to hear that something has come down in price, those gloves were really very expensive back in the 1980's. I do not believe I gave any advice in respect of the use of those gloves in combination with wood working tools, I only related my own experience with them.

24th July 2025, 08:33 AM	#4
adamb Member Join Date: Oct 2024 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 38	For anyone interested in this matter: I removed the hilt from the tang to inspect it closer. The hilt definitely seems to be comprised of at least two distinct kinds of materials: 1) a dark wood with a lustrous, rich grain; 2) smaller elements comprised of what I previously interpreted as a lighter-coloured wood, one with no distinct grain. The two parts have been joined together with glue in an intricate pattern. The hilt cup had been glued to the hilt with some sort of fibrous white adhesive. I scraped away the remnants of the adhesive on both. This revealed that the hilt cup is comprised entirely of some sort of whitish-coloured material that has been coated with what seems to be a dark-coloured lacquer/shellac. The same material is also visible in the composite hilt, suggesting hilt and hilt cup are contemporaneous. I don't know what this whitish material is: I tested it with a red hot needle; the needle went in and the smell I interpret as being earthy/woody. By contrast, I did the same test on an two resin-cast keris hilts: both gave off a strong plastic smell that was distinct from the earthy/woody smell. I also did the needle test on the bone hilt of a mandau, and on a deer antler: in both cases, the hot needle could hardly be pushed in, and the resultant smells were again distinct from the earthy/woody smell. So perhaps it is some kind of soft(ish), light-coloured wood (but if so, I can't see any grain). Attached Images

25th July 2025, 08:34 AM	#6
adamb Member Join Date: Oct 2024 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 38	Sorry Alan, I hope this image is a bit clearer now; the coloured areas in the schematic illustration show the parts of the keris hilt that seem to be comprised of different materials to the richly grained wood (left blank in the schematic). Seems like an extraordinary amount of effort to patch up a damaged hilt. Regarding the glove (actually very cheap from Bunnings), until I develop a higher level of skill in the use of the very sharp knife I used to scrape away the tough glue, I prefer to keep all my fingers intact! But I appreciate the advice, thank you. Attached Images

11th July 2025, 03:59 AM	#1
adamb Member Join Date: Oct 2024 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 38	On the other matter: has anyone seen a composite wooden hilt before like the one in this Bugis keris in my original post(s)? And, as Alan points out, the brass collar with the swivel? Is this an unusual feature of Bugis keris? I've seen broadly similar kinds of metal attachments (sometimes with swivels) on the sheaths of badiks of various kinds from South Sulawesi; typically, these seem to be anchor points to which woven cords used to keep the blade securely housed in the sheath are attached. cheers Adam

13th July 2025, 01:29 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Adam, anything is possible. In so far as societies where many, or perhaps most, of the population subscribe to the concept that we could perhaps refer to as the "magical world view", it can be accepted that the phenomenon of irrational belief is a component part of the fabric of these societies. I have never been a permanent resident of Jawa, nor of Bali, but I have spent months at a time in both these societies, over a period of many years. During these extended stays, I have experienced & witnessed some occurrences that if measured by the norms of societies in most, if not all of the societies that comprise the "Western World", would be deemed to be creations of an over imaginative mind. The belief systems that surround the keris, in Jawa in particular, but also in other keris bearing societies, do most definitely fall into the purview of keris understanding. Thus, when you suggest that the use of wood in a component part of a keris could possibly be talismanic, we could, perhaps, be inclined to accept this suggestion as a possibility, as above:- "anything is possible". However, if we are to undertake a serious study of the keris, & its place in those societies that hold the keris to be a cultural icon, then I suggest that it might be advisable to limit our understandings of what might be & what might not be considered as having some talismanic or other unseen essence, to those beliefs that already exist in the particular context under consideration. In other words, do we know of the use of talismanically empowered woods used in items of keris dress? Well, actually we do, but in all cases of which I am aware there would be some visible evidence that indicates the presence of a talismanic value. If we wish to affix a talismanic value to any object, keris related or otherwise, in the absence of visible evidence of such talismanic value, then perhaps it might be advisable to be able to present a strong argument to support the existence of such value. There can be no doubt that the keris itself --- by this I mean the blade --- does have beliefs attached to it that can sometimes seem to be "magical". Some keris literate Javanese people attribute these "magical" beliefs to Dutch & other European influence going back to the early days of European contact when there was still a strong belief in magic in European countries, when witches were burnt, garlic above a doorway kept evil out of the house, and a pinch of salt thrown over the left shoulder kept Satan at bay. I was taught the salt thing as a child by my grandparents, so this little belief was still alive for some people in the mid 20th century. These grandparents also had a strong belief in the powers of garlic. And Holy Water Fonts. Yes, the keris is magical, but that magic is anchored in its binding power & the belief that the Keris Pusaka acts as a bond between ancestors who have moved to the Hidden World and the extended family of those ancestors in the current world. It seems that this belief was not always accepted nor understood by those people from outside Javanese & Balinese culture who came in contact with the keris. Even if they were ever made aware of the belief.

16th July 2025, 06:48 AM	#3
adamb Member Join Date: Oct 2024 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 38	Thank you Alan, it is most kind of you to share your thoughts on this subject. with warm regards Adam

25th July 2025, 12:17 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Adam, what I believe I can see at the bottom end of that hilt is a fairly common repair for a cracked hilt, the hilt hole is enlarged, the hilt is compressed to close the cracks, the insert is put in place with a strong adhesive. In the case of your hilt, it appears that the insert has been run through the wooden cup as well. If a the upper part of a hilt is also badly cracked, or there is a hole through it, usually caused by careless drilling of the tang hole, that insert will be run all the way through the hilt and reshaped into correct form. I suspect something like this could have been done with your hilt. I note that you are wearing an armour glove. I am aware that some people do wear these when using sharp tools, however, I personally find that I have much better control of power tools & much better feel of traditional manual tools without the glove. Going back to when I was doing a lot of custom knife work there was a bit of a craze for makers to wear these gloves, & at the time it seemed like a good idea, so I gave it a try. I slipped up so many times when using even a single glove that I finally dumped those expensive gloves in the rubbish bin.

25th July 2025, 09:50 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Thanks for those pics Adam, yes, the various materials used are now quite clear, and you're dead right, it would have been a lot of work, but if one is a skilled worker in wood, such a job would not be at all difficult. For example, my own father was expert in the art of marquetry, and for him, a job like this would be no effort at all. On the other hand, for me it would be very difficult. If a new hilt is not able to be obtained, the repair of the old hilt is necessary, but in my experience, such a repair would never be done in the areas of SE Asia with which I am familiar. My opinion is that this hilt was repaired outside the culture of origin of the keris. I'm pleased to hear that something has come down in price, those gloves were really very expensive back in the 1980's. I do not believe I gave any advice in respect of the use of those gloves in combination with wood working tools, I only related my own experience with them.