Weird "sword"

[Ian]

This one was sold recently at auction. It is not mine and the attached images are from the auction site.

This sword length object (OAL = 29.25 in.) has an unusual blade that appears to be old. There is a date at forte of "1707" and the letter "J." Two spikes emerge from the sides of the blade about 5-6 in. from the tip. Perhaps this a refashioning of the original blade--if so, it was done a long time ago. In some ways, these spikes remind me of a harpoon. The hilt appears to be wood or perhaps a copper alloy, maybe brass/bronze--hard to say from the pictures.

I've not seen another like it. Anyone know what it is or where it may be from?


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[Jim McDougall]

Wow Ian! this thing strains the boundaries of pragmatic thought! While it appears to have been a sword blade however lacking any evidence of fullering or typical blade features it would seem a blacksmith made example. The age based on the pitting etc corresponds to 18th c......in accord with the 'date'(?)

It is always curious why bold dates are placed on sword blades, or purported to have been placed on them when made. It seems most likely in most cases a date is typically a commemorative toward some significant event in the context of the blades intended user. For example, 1707 was the date of the disastrous Acts of Union between England and Scotland, but that notion is tenuous at best, as why would that date be heralded? unless the weapon was to be used against it.

The odd letter 'J' (or so it seems) would not be used for 'Jacobite' obviously as the letter J as such was not in use in alphabet for at least 100 years. I hated even bringing that idea in as it is so irrelevant, but for the sake of discussion I figured why not
So then is this some symbolic device or balemark?

Moving to the most notable features of the blade, this seems clearly some repurposed blade into a tool or implement.
This strains the old phrase from Biblical context, ' beating swords into plowshares'..........this aint no plowshare!!!

The strange barb system does bring to mind a harpoon (as you have noted), or some sort of hunting implement.

So all I can add is questions, but look forward to the amazing knowledge base out there........and those lurking.....bring it in!!!!
All I could add is this silly ratiocination, but added it anyway.

[Ian]

Thanks Jim. Appreciate your thoughts.

[Edster]

Ian,

Your 'sword" may be a tool rather than a weapon, as Jim suggests. The interiors of the point elements are aligned. Also the roots of the points have been relieved like to accommodate or catch or guide a rope or other flexible material.

As far as actual "purpose", who knows? An archeologist with no clue would opt for some sort of "ritual significance".

Best,
Ed

[Ian]

Thanks Ed, might well be a tool, but I don't know what it would be used for. Unusual to see a small brass (?) disk guard on a tool, but could be.

[RobT]

Ian,

Very interesting piece. I am leaning toward tool. The shape of two prongs would allow them to be used as nail pullers. If the blade were to be thrust forward so that the nail head would catch in the blade/prong notch of the prong nearest the tip, that would serve to raise the nail slightly. The small guard would keep the hand from sliding up the hilt on the thrust. Once the nail was raised (and bent forward slightly by the thrust) the prong/blade notch on the other side could be used to pry the nail out by using the tip as a fulcrum. Take a look at slate roof nail pullers from the 1700s.
Are you sure it is a letter “J”?. When I saw it, the first that came to my mind was a bale hook. What I find interesting about all of the lettering is that it appears to be raised. Is this just the photograph?

Sincerely,
RobT

[Ian]

Hi Rob. I'm sure of very little about this item. The markings at forte are cut into the steel. The edges below the two spikes are said to have been sharpened. Any thoughts why?

[thomas hauschild]

Modern „clean“ steel is from 1850-1870 or younger. Any older steel should show some laminations / forge-welding visible in the rust. Just an opinion.

Best Thomas

[Ian]

Thanks Thomas. I believe I see laminations in the distal end of the blade, above and adjacent to the spikes. The patination more proximally seems very dense and could mask lamination.

[ausjulius]

Looks like santaria or some voodoo script to be honest...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ausjulius

Looks like santaria or some voodoo script to be honest...

What sort of Santaria script/Voodoo script?

While Africa had its own symbolisms, and Voodoo as well as Santaria evolved from the West African Vodun religion not sure this number (1707) or the 'J' ? have such connections. Do you mean the curious shapes on the blade?
Actually they remind me more of Central African 'throwing knives'......but West Coast Africa had some bizarre shapes on blades in Dahomey (Benin).

[Tim Simmons]

With a little research I do believe that ausjulius is on the money. This is some kind of spiritual/magic weapon related to other machete like blades in West Africa vodun believes. We have example in the archive with some understanding of there meaning. The arcane ancient look is a feature of these things which are in the archive. Gubasa is a starting point.

[Jim McDougall]

At the risk of a clumsy interpretation, I decided to look further into the idea of this having West African religious/spiritual associations and found some potential ideas amidst the complexity of these.

My speculation is this item may be from the Haitian/Dominican sphere, and potentially, owing to the very old appearance of the metal, could date to the French colonial period there. Further it may have connection to the Haitian Revolution (1791-1804) the insurrection of slaves, mulattos under the suzerainty of French overlords.

The religions of West Africa (many people here were Fon, Ewa and Aja from Dahomey) who practiced VODUN, which later evolved into 'Voodoo' in the southern states of US. ..as well as spirit pantheons from the western Congo became the complex African religion syncretic with Catholicism.
This is connected to the Santaria noted.

While monotheistic, there is a highly complex pantheon of gods/spirits termed IWA who are humans who act as intermediaries with this pantheon.

Without getting myself too far 'into the weeds' (too late) ..
there is one named 'Ogun' (?) who is associated with PETWO, defender of Rada values, and carries weaponry,

The Petwo side of things is 'hot' ..assiociated with fire, violence in these defenses of Rada, the softer cooler values.

I am thinking that somehow this might be a ceremonial bearing or perhaps inspirational weapon in which the blade resembles flames in these respects.

While admittedly somewhat wild in speculative suggestion, it seems to be in course with this VERY unusual 'weapon', which aligns more spiritually than as an actual weapon.

[Ian]

Well, this is getting interesting! This thread may go on for a while in exploring the mystical elements of this item. I find the possible African spiritual connection very interesting, and its possible entree into the U.S. via slavery.

[Tim Simmons]

It could be an very stylised Haitian Vodou version of Shango axe morphed into a machete, a significant element in Haitia.

[Jim McDougall]

Tim that is a viable suggestion as what we are dealing with is the stylized and often temporal interpretations of spiritual concepts and beliefs.
I think Ausjulius' idea is well placed and looking back to discussions in which he was a key contributor back in 2009 showed his keen interest in these areas.

The Dahomean hwi and the varied types of 'ada' swords of the Kingdom of Benin in Nigeria seem to have many variations of 'themed' ceremonial swords. In many cases they were stylistically like many of the actual weapons used, however many were so artistically oriented that they would not have been feasible as battle weapons.

In many cases, the artistic styling might be subtle, as it would seem possibly pertaining to the example we are discussing.

In reading through some posts it was noted that another symbolic element in Dahomean regions was the shark (see the cutlass illustrated below with bifurcated tip and handle).
The plate of hwi examples is from "Sabers Decores du Dahomey" Palau Marti, Objets du Mondes, VII: 4, 1967.

The hwi shown with briquet hilt illustrates the interpolation of colonial weapons with tribal blades as often the case in ethnographic weapons. While initially thought this was of course a French briquet, it was found actually this was German (by regimental marks on hilt). While French colonized most of these West African areas, the Germans were present in Togo.

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Edster

Ian,

Your 'sword" may be a tool rather than a weapon, as Jim suggests. The interiors of the point elements are aligned. Also the roots of the points have been relieved like to accommodate or catch or guide a rope or other flexible material.

As far as actual "purpose", who knows? An archeologist with no clue would opt for some sort of "ritual significance".

Best,
Ed

I don't think it's a tool .
As to the letter that's not a letter J in any Latin script ....

[Tim Simmons]

Interesting stuff from Google AI

1:
Represents new beginnings, leadership, and the spirit Papa Legba, who controls the crossroads and allows communication between worlds.
7:
Can be associated with the spirit Ogou, a warrior spirit representing strength, power, and protection. It can also be linked to wisdom and spiritual insight.
0:
Often signifies potential, the void, or the beginning of a cycle. In some contexts, it can be linked to the spirit of the Great Mystery or the divine.
Therefore, while 1707 isn't a standard Voodoo number, it could be interpreted as a call for new beginnings (1) and strength (7), possibly with the assistance of a powerful spirit like Papa Legba (1) or Ogou (7), and with the potential for spiritual growth (0) through their guidance. The presence of two sevens could also emphasize the importance of spiritual strength and protection.
It's important to note that interpretations can vary within different branches and traditions of Voodoo, and a specific understanding would likely come from consulting with a Vodouisant (practitioner) familiar with the specific tradition and lineage.

[Ian]

Tim, thank you for this interpretation of 1707. Outside-the-box thinking indeed!

Great stuff.

This is why I think this forum is special--smart people, good ideas, and a willingness to express unconventional interpretations.

[Ian]

Tim, I did a similar search using Google's AI engine and here is what it said:

Question: What do the numbers 1, 7, 0 and date 1707 mean in Voodoo culture?

Answer:

While Voodoo has a rich history rooted in West African traditions and syncretized with Catholicism, particularly in Haiti and Louisiana, the year 1707 does not appear to hold a specific, widely recognized significance within Voodoo history itself.
My search results show that 1707 is mentioned in the context of:

• Witchcraft laws in Great Britain: The union of Scotland with England in 1707 led to more tightly controlled prosecutions of witches. This is a historical event related to witchcraft in a European context, not directly to the development or practices of Voodoo.
• A study code (ZA1707): A search result from GESIS (a German social science infrastructure service) mentions "Study: ZA1707 - The Search for Meaning - the New Goals in Life." This is likely an internal code for a research study and not a significant date for Voodoo.
The origins of Haitian Vodou and Louisiana Voodoo can be traced back to the 16th-19th centuries, with enslaved Africans bringing their traditions to the Americas. Key developments include:
• 16th-19th centuries: The blending of West and Central African religions with Catholicism in colonial Saint-Domingue (Haiti) and Louisiana.
• 1791 slave revolt in Haiti: This event led to a bolstered presence of Voodoo followers in places like New Orleans.
Therefore, while 1707 falls within the broader period of Voodoo's development, it doesn't stand out as a pivotal year in the religion's timeline. The significance lies more in the overall processes of syncretism, resistance, and the continuity of African spiritual practices in the diaspora.
While specific numerical systems like Western numerology aren't central to Vodou in the same way they might be in other esoteric traditions, numbers do hold significant meaning within the context of Vodou, often in relation to specific Lwa (spirits) and their associated rituals and attributes. It's more about their association with specific entities or concepts than a universal, abstract numerical code.

Here's a breakdown of how the numbers 1, 7, and 0 might be understood:

1 (One):

• Unity and the Divine: In many spiritual systems, including those that influenced Vodou, "one" often represents the ultimate source, the creator, or the unity of all things. In Vodou, this could broadly relate to Bondye, the distant, transcendent creator deity.
• Beginning/Source: As the first number, it signifies the origin or foundation.
• Self-reliance, Individual Power: Some numerological interpretations, which may find echoes in Vodou's emphasis on personal connection with spirits, link 1 to individual purpose, ambition, and self.

7 (Seven):

• Spiritual Completeness and Perfection: This is a very significant number in many spiritual traditions, and it carries weight in Vodou as well. It's often associated with spiritual perfection, wisdom, and mystical connection.
• Lwa Associations:

o Ogun: The Lwa of iron, war, and justice, Ogun is strongly associated with the number 7, reflecting his powerful influence and complete nature as both warrior and craftsman.
o Elegua (Eshu): The Lwa of crossroads, communication, and trickery, Elegua is associated with numbers like 3, 7, 21, 101, and 1001. The 7 here can represent the "seven directions" Elegua can move, highlighting his ability to navigate different realms.
o Yemaya (Yemoja): The Lwa of the ocean, motherhood, and fertility, Yemaya is associated with 7, 14, and 21. The 7 here relates to the "seven seas" and her nurturing virtues.
o Oshun: The Lwa of love, beauty, and abundance, Oshun is associated with 5, 7, 9, 12, and 21. The 7 can represent the "seven colors of the rainbow" and her virtues.

• Planetary and Lunar Cycles: In broader occult and numerological contexts (which sometimes intersect with Vodou, especially in a syncretic way), 7 is linked to the planets known to the ancients and the lunar phases.

0 (Zero):

• Potential and Nothingness/Allness: Zero, representing an absence, can also symbolize the void from which all things emerge, or the ultimate potential for creation. It signifies the beginning of a journey (like "The Fool" in Tarot, which can be linked to 0).
• The Void/Cosmic Egg: In some cosmologies, 0 can represent the unmanifested, the ultimate source before creation takes form.
• Moon (in some contexts): While not universally applied, some belief systems associate 0 with the moon due to its round shape.
Important Considerations:
• Lwa-Specific Associations: The most prominent numerical meanings in Vodou often come from their direct association with specific Lwa. Rituals and offerings for certain Lwa will involve specific numbers of items or repetitions that correspond to that Lwa's attributes and preferences.
• Syncretism: Vodou is a syncretic religion, blending West African traditions with Catholicism and other influences. This means that numerical symbolism might also draw from these other sources, though always filtered through the Vodou lens.
• Regional Variations: Like any living tradition, Vodou has variations depending on the region (e.g., Haitian Vodou vs. Louisiana Voodoo) and lineage. Specific numerical meanings might vary subtly between different houses or practitioners.
• Veves: While not numbers themselves, the intricate veves (sacred drawings made on the ground) are highly symbolic and represent specific Lwa. The patterns within these veves often contain geometric and numerical principles, even if not explicitly numerical in the way we usually think.
In summary, while a rigid "numerology chart" for Vodou is unlikely to be found, the numbers 1, 7, and 0 (and others, like 3 and 9) hold significant, though often contextual, meaning through their connections to the Lwa and the broader spiritual principles of the tradition.

[Ian]

I posted a Google search for images of similar sword and I got back am interesting result. Three months ago, our old friend RSWORD posted the identical sword (same pictures as the auction) on reddit, with the same message of What is it? The responses were not as good as here

[Tim Simmons]

There is also a modern terminology of "1707" as an angel number with basically the same interpretation. I personally do not think the number a year date as in manufacturing. I also suggest that it is probably not 18th century, but made to appear and exude ancient origin and mystery. I might suggest that the "J" motif on the blade is a short hand symbol for the Veve for Papa Legba. Papa legba being depicted as an old man with a cane/crutch, like the number people in the know would understand the coding. I uploaded the Veve for Papa Legba and the cane is on the right hand side.

[Jim McDougall]

Ian and Tim, you guys are the most phenomenal researchers ever!!!! All this Voodoo material is notably esoteric and very hard to get through in all its complexity, but you guys have condensed it into applicable and understandable descriptions.

In 'the old days' many moons ago, I recall trying to get into all this in the study of African weapons. The slow snail mail, trying to find reference titles etc was daunting, time consuming and not overall productive.
The use of todays online sources, AI, quick responses...and with guys like you at the helm.........these kinds of results are phenomenal!!!

Great find with the same sword presented on the 'social' media, with the expected playful, silly and feeble projections. These venues, like facebook as well, are not serious study forums as we fortunately have here.

Especially important is the recognition here toward the '1707' number.
One of the most notable items in the study of arms historically, particularly markings , are number combinations.

The most prevalent instances are the 'magic numbers' such as 1414 or 1441 on European blades often taken as dates by the unititiated. Many of these combinations have even been attributed to certain makers (Wagner, 1967).
These are cases of alpha numeric value applied much in the manner of cabalistic interpretation.

This forum is indeed amazing, and thanks to this kind of willingness to go the extra mile to present great researched perspectives in discussions.
Here we learn together, I know I do, every day!
Thank you guys!

[Tim Simmons]

Thank you Jim. Something would quite liked to have.

[Ian]

Jim, it is indeed amazing what information is readily accessible online now. When I started out in my academic career in the 1960s, finding references meant going to the library, taking Index Medicus (enormous volumes per calendar year) and laboriously looking through them for relevant titles. It was painful reading the small print.

I feel privileged to have lived through the last 60 years and experienced the massive increase in access to knowledge.