Splendid silver Tulwar for translation and comments

[Gonzoadler]

Hello Serdar,

That blade profile and AA acid markings are indian, cartuches are too big and over dimensioned, and engraved by acid, indian blade 19 century maybe end of 18.

Possibly you are right, but you can find many Assadullah-blades with etched cartouches in the internet and I doubt that they are all Indian. Also there is a long tradition of etching steel in Persia. So I would be carefully to argue with that against a Persian origin.

Filigree is not at all real filigree work with wire but a cast piece that is clearly visible from photos, real goldsmith filigree is braided silver wire, there is no wire on this piece, it is cast in a mould from uniform metal, and definetly it is not a real filigree work. And that cape and handle pieces doesent seem old indian work.

I never wrote that it is filigree, as I stated in my opening post the fittings are pierced, which is clearly visible. I don't see an attempt to imitate silver filigree.

Before I posted the sword here, I looked in the internet for similar decorations on old or modern Indian swords but didn't found one, not pierced and not in filigree. That the handle is not typically Indian is very clear, too. So of course the whole sword is no traditional Indian work at all. It seems highly influenced by European and Persian style, which causes my questions about the purpose and the origin.

It should be examined in hands, but to me that doesent look older than 20 century, second half of 20.century (handle and scabbard).

It isnt similar to non of old tulwars or indian swords i have examined, but that fake filigree casting i have seen on a few indian tulwars and pulwars from 20 century.

Can you show similar silverwork from that time? Or generally fake Indian weapons which have this "fake filigree" (which isn't that, in my opinion) or other similar features like the shown sword?

Kind regards
Robin

[Jim McDougall]

It is really a hard call, it is a well known practice to have more modern interpretations of old sword forms, or examples done 'in the manner of' so and so, paired with genuine old blades. While it is of course tempting to presume that this was done to preserve a heirloom blade, trophy, or one that is traditionally or historically significant ....the 'elephant in the room' is of course that modern artisans do this deceptively.
Naturally, this is quite common, but there are typically ways the experts can tell......unfortunately I am no 'expert' so cannot declare one way or another.

My purpose in posting was to illustrate possible scenarios in which such a sword might be fashioned and for what purpose.

I will point out that Persian culture, thus weapons and items are typically profoundly represented in that of Mughal India. As I earlier noted, the popular European rococo styling is incorporated into the elements of Indian and Persian decoration, as would have been notable in the period I noted, first half 19th, possibly slightly later.

The wootz (watered steel) blade would be hard to consider modern, though I know that modern artisans so produce artificial examples on knives. With the pictogram cartouche of the lion and sun, which became the Qajar dynastic crest in early 19th c. (Pinchot, 2002, note 42), these cartouches along with bold Islamic script in panels and cartouches, these appeared on the ubiquitous Persian trade blades of mid-late 18th into early 19th c.

These Persian trade blades were popular through trade channels from Arabia, and most regions under Ottoman suzerainty, through India (on tulwars), Malaysia, most of the Middle East and even the Caucasus. Therefore, these blades are not 'Indian' , but widely diffused Persian trade blades.

These trade blades using a pictograph rather than signature of the famed Assad Allah of Isfahan of late 16th into early 17th c. are using his name simply as a mark of quality and commemoration.

While of course modern reproductions of the swords of India and others are made, this kind of quality seems far beyond examples of those regularly seen. I did once have a nicely mounted Polish karabela with silver mounts (but simpler) which 'by the numbers' looked right, and the blade was notably a heavy 17th century tulwar blade with inscription in Urdu and a katar stamp.
Impressive, with old blade.

[Tim Simmons]

It is a splendid item with beautiful silver work but I am still feeling the it is 20th century and possibly not the first quarter however undeniably lovely.

[Gonzoadler]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

It is a splendid item with beautiful silver work but I am still feeling the it is 20th century and possibly not the first quarter however undeniably lovely.

I can understand your feeling. It seems possible to me, that the fittings as old as the blade (ca. 1800) but my first feeling would be a later date of production, too. Maybe later british colonial era (ca. 1900).

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
For comparison of styles here is my one and only example of a Persian blade complete with the much copied Assad Allah cartouche. The small cartouche, I am told, reads 'O fulfiller of needs'.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
The scabbard drag on the item in question is a nod to the scabbard drags on British military swords. This Afghan sword is a local attempt to copy British style swords and scabbards. From my enquiries these modifications were done to existing swords and scabbards in the later 19thC when local Afghans were recruited for service with the British colonial forces. The similarity of the drags is obvious. I suspect the scabbard in question if not the complete sword is at the earliest late 19thC although I hate to say I'm with some others in that sometime in the 20thC seems more likely but I would like to be wrong.
Regards,
Norman.

[Sajen]

Like I said before, I know next to nothing about Persian and Indian blades. But here some observations:

a. The suspension rings show wear

b. The hilt has dents

c. The top scabbard shape is compressed

[Gonzoadler]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
The scabbard drag on the item in question is a nod to the scabbard drags on British military swords. This Afghan sword is a local attempt to copy British style swords and scabbards. From my enquiries these modifications were done to existing swords and scabbards in the later 19thC when local Afghans were recruited for service with the British colonial forces. The similarity of the drags is obvious. I suspect the scabbard in question if not the complete sword is at the earliest late 19thC although I hate to say I'm with some others in that sometime in the 20thC seems more likely but I would like to be wrong.
Regards,
Norman.

Thank you for your input, too, very interesting. You don't have to hate to write that because I principally agree with you. I don't think that the fittings are very recent, but my first feeling wasn't around 1800, rather around 1900. Of course some decades later is also possible, but I would say at least first third of the 20th century. Much younger is not very plausible for me because I see no purpose for such a sword much later.

Kind regards
Robin