Schiavona pommel

urbanspaceman · 25th June 2025, 10:08 PM

That wolf looks like a Munsten family marking. They were in Hounslow and marked their blades with that wolf so everybody assumed they were Solingen imports, but they not have been as often they also had their name on too.
I'm not suggesting this was a Hounslow made blade however, just the provenance of that particular wolf.
Feel free to contradict me, I am always grateful.

dralin23 · 29th June 2025, 04:42 PM

Hello
As far as I know, the Munsten family was also active in Solingen. I don't know the history of this family exactly, so I can't start a discussion about it.
As far as I know, however, the craftsmen of Shortley Bridge chose a running fox as their mark, which was very different from the running wolf.
If you look at the wolf on the Shiavona blade and compare it with the overview of the Passau wolves, you can clearly see that the blade's mark is similar in shape and style to the mark on the page that deals with the history of the Passau wolf. It's the last 3, and it suggests that the blade could date from the 16th-17th century.
The Solingen blacksmiths, just like the English blacksmiths, probably liked to falsify their names or marks to pretend they came from a specific workshop, for example, "Toledo."
The most famous and longest-lived bladesmith is probably Andrea Ferrera!
He forged many thousands of swords and even changed the spelling of his name from time to time...
I think this flamed blade was made by a good blacksmith from Solingen and that he signed it with the pseudonym "Francesco."

Jim McDougall · 29th June 2025, 07:27 PM

Looking more into these fascinating examples, which are anomalies of the spectrum of schiavona examples.
The first is with the trellis form of the basket consistent with latter 18th c. and embellished with the gold metal fluerets at each square of the basket seeming to correspond with other highly embellished sword hilts of this period. The helmeted figure appears to represent some important military figure with the mustache and what appears to be Austro-German cuirassiers helmet of 18thc.

As discussed the blade seems much earlier and corresponding to the date 1713, with the No. seeming to be either unit designation and the R part of that rather than a spurious regal cypher. This would seem to be a heirloom blade that has been remounted by an officer with a commemorative theme in mind.

The next example is especially intriguing with the undulating flammard blade, which seems highly unusual for these swords, and seem uncommon for typical Solingen trade blades.

The running wolf mark is properly configured for Solingen examples as it is inverted next to the wording adjacent on the blade.

A few notes on the Munstens.....There seem to have been two Peter Munstens, according to Mann (Wallace Coll. 1962, p315-16) with one being referred to as the younger, however his dates 1580-1629 are contemporary to the other Peter Munsten, (1552-1628) who was mayor of Soiingen in addition to being a maker, and referred to as 'the elder'.

The first Peter Munsten (the younger) may have been a cadet branch of the family, and used the Madonna and Child as a mark. He went to London and entered the Hounslow enterprise, signing his blades with ME FECIT LONDON, but changed his name to PETER ENGLISH.

Meanwhile, the other Peter Munsten, situated in Solingen, is most likely to have perhaps used the running wolf on some of his blades. There was no specific association or presence of this marking to certain makers in either Solingen nor Passau, where the mark originated.

This was likely a totemic type marking from ancient European times which evolved into a more talismanic/magic/ occult device which eventually evolved past those connotations and became a kind of quality symbol. Solingen, in its clever and astute adoption of renowned names, symbols and phrases used them spuriously on their blades to appeal to markets in the trade networks.

The most commonly used markings, names etc were from the legendary works in Toledo, and the use of Spanish makers names such as Tomas de Aiala, Sebastian Hernandez, Sahagum and others often appear on Solingen blades. Certain Solingen smiths even worked in Toledo, strengthening the associations.

In the case of this schiavona with flammard blade, it is of course from Solingen, maker unknown, but certainly of high quality as these type blades were not randomly produced for trade markets. The name Francesco is simply the Christian name of one of the number of Toledo smiths of 17th century (however in Italian usage) used to imply that status. Toledo did not use the running wolf, nor did any of the Italian states.

Good note on ANDREA FERARA, whose NAME prolifically appeared on countless blades, mostly in Scotland, for well over a century after his death. While there appears to have actually been such a person in Belluno Italy c. 1580, myths and lore have him appearing in Spain and Scotland, which was never the case. The fact that his name linguistically associated with 'good,true iron/steel' gave it the impetus to become more a trademark.
The variations in spellings of these names obviously is due to the literacy and skill of the workers applying them.

25th June 2025, 10:08 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 715	Wolf That wolf looks like a Munsten family marking. They were in Hounslow and marked their blades with that wolf so everybody assumed they were Solingen imports, but they not have been as often they also had their name on too. I'm not suggesting this was a Hounslow made blade however, just the provenance of that particular wolf. Feel free to contradict me, I am always grateful.

29th June 2025, 04:42 PM	#2
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 210	the wolf mark at these shiavona Hello As far as I know, the Munsten family was also active in Solingen. I don't know the history of this family exactly, so I can't start a discussion about it. As far as I know, however, the craftsmen of Shortley Bridge chose a running fox as their mark, which was very different from the running wolf. If you look at the wolf on the Shiavona blade and compare it with the overview of the Passau wolves, you can clearly see that the blade's mark is similar in shape and style to the mark on the page that deals with the history of the Passau wolf. It's the last 3, and it suggests that the blade could date from the 16th-17th century. The Solingen blacksmiths, just like the English blacksmiths, probably liked to falsify their names or marks to pretend they came from a specific workshop, for example, "Toledo." The most famous and longest-lived bladesmith is probably Andrea Ferrera! He forged many thousands of swords and even changed the spelling of his name from time to time... I think this flamed blade was made by a good blacksmith from Solingen and that he signed it with the pseudonym "Francesco." Attached Images

29th June 2025, 07:27 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,571	Looking more into these fascinating examples, which are anomalies of the spectrum of schiavona examples. The first is with the trellis form of the basket consistent with latter 18th c. and embellished with the gold metal fluerets at each square of the basket seeming to correspond with other highly embellished sword hilts of this period. The helmeted figure appears to represent some important military figure with the mustache and what appears to be Austro-German cuirassiers helmet of 18thc. As discussed the blade seems much earlier and corresponding to the date 1713, with the No. seeming to be either unit designation and the R part of that rather than a spurious regal cypher. This would seem to be a heirloom blade that has been remounted by an officer with a commemorative theme in mind. The next example is especially intriguing with the undulating flammard blade, which seems highly unusual for these swords, and seem uncommon for typical Solingen trade blades. The running wolf mark is properly configured for Solingen examples as it is inverted next to the wording adjacent on the blade. A few notes on the Munstens.....There seem to have been two Peter Munstens, according to Mann (Wallace Coll. 1962, p315-16) with one being referred to as the younger, however his dates 1580-1629 are contemporary to the other Peter Munsten, (1552-1628) who was mayor of Soiingen in addition to being a maker, and referred to as 'the elder'. The first Peter Munsten (the younger) may have been a cadet branch of the family, and used the Madonna and Child as a mark. He went to London and entered the Hounslow enterprise, signing his blades with ME FECIT LONDON, but changed his name to PETER ENGLISH. Meanwhile, the other Peter Munsten, situated in Solingen, is most likely to have perhaps used the running wolf on some of his blades. There was no specific association or presence of this marking to certain makers in either Solingen nor Passau, where the mark originated. This was likely a totemic type marking from ancient European times which evolved into a more talismanic/magic/ occult device which eventually evolved past those connotations and became a kind of quality symbol. Solingen, in its clever and astute adoption of renowned names, symbols and phrases used them spuriously on their blades to appeal to markets in the trade networks. The most commonly used markings, names etc were from the legendary works in Toledo, and the use of Spanish makers names such as Tomas de Aiala, Sebastian Hernandez, Sahagum and others often appear on Solingen blades. Certain Solingen smiths even worked in Toledo, strengthening the associations. In the case of this schiavona with flammard blade, it is of course from Solingen, maker unknown, but certainly of high quality as these type blades were not randomly produced for trade markets. The name Francesco is simply the Christian name of one of the number of Toledo smiths of 17th century (however in Italian usage) used to imply that status. Toledo did not use the running wolf, nor did any of the Italian states. Good note on ANDREA FERARA, whose NAME prolifically appeared on countless blades, mostly in Scotland, for well over a century after his death. While there appears to have actually been such a person in Belluno Italy c. 1580, myths and lore have him appearing in Spain and Scotland, which was never the case. The fact that his name linguistically associated with 'good,true iron/steel' gave it the impetus to become more a trademark. The variations in spellings of these names obviously is due to the literacy and skill of the workers applying them.