Dagger, child dagger, “kidney dagger”?

serdar · 13th June 2025, 08:14 PM

A small dagger, engraved with initials, handle made from bone plates intertwine with brass, very nice thing.

If someone knows more about it?

urbanspaceman · 14th June 2025, 05:44 PM

You have not included a ruler/tape measure.
At first I thought such elaborate, delicate detailing might indicate a woman's piece, but it seems it is intended for outer carry (the belt loop) so I don't know.
Measurements might help.
Fine and fascinating weapon... and very effective.

serdar · 14th June 2025, 08:39 PM

Hy, i dont know if that is a belt loop, it is small, around 14-15 cm in total lenght with scabbard, and that metal loop is small, if it is for a belt, then a small one, thats why i thougt it is maybe childs?
Im on the go, so i cant take photo, but i mesured the dagger before it is between 14-15 cm.

Maybe it is womans dagger, or childs?
It reminded me on a kidney dagger, a gamblers or prostitutes dagger, but monograms, it leans more toward something a military face child would have, maybe from Austro-Hungary, or Croatia?

urbanspaceman · 15th June 2025, 10:23 AM

I agree, I did not realise it was so small. Let's see what everyone else's opinion is.

Interested Party · Yesterday, 03:56 PM

I would love to see the "loop" in detail when you have a chance. The monogram's T reminds me of an orthodox cross. The laurel motifs give the ensemble a military feel. The decorations have stippled backgrounds Syria does that also in brass I believe) and there are layers of scalloped edged sheet brass near the throat (Afghans use that). The decorations give a rustic feel. These all seem like clues to me, but I don't have an answer. Could there be something like a masonic association? Many of the shapes are squared and there are angular corners on the guard. Finally, the sheath is very like a Mauser bayonet sheath from the late 19th/early 20th century. What period do we believe this is from? I could see Austria/Hungary, even Russia, but my best guess is when rather than where, early 20th century.

Jim McDougall · Today, 05:28 PM

To set things straight, a 'kidney dagger' is simply a Victorian term used to detract from the genitally associated 'bollock dagger' term for a dagger form used from 13th-18th c.

This little dagger seems more a regalia oriented accoutrement from possibly some fraternal order or group, in the manner of the broader spectrum of Freemasonry et al.
The initials with wreath surround seem to reflect this type of neo-classic ornamentation in accord with notes by I.P. I very much agree with European, and the observation on the bayonet scabbard.

13th June 2025, 08:14 PM	#1
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 146	Dagger, child dagger, “kidney dagger”? A small dagger, engraved with initials, handle made from bone plates intertwine with brass, very nice thing. If someone knows more about it? Attached Images

15th June 2025, 10:23 AM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 622	question I agree, I did not realise it was so small. Let's see what everyone else's opinion is.

Yesterday, 03:56 PM	#5
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 498	I would love to see the "loop" in detail when you have a chance. The monogram's T reminds me of an orthodox cross. The laurel motifs give the ensemble a military feel. The decorations have stippled backgrounds Syria does that also in brass I believe) and there are layers of scalloped edged sheet brass near the throat (Afghans use that). The decorations give a rustic feel. These all seem like clues to me, but I don't have an answer. Could there be something like a masonic association? Many of the shapes are squared and there are angular corners on the guard. Finally, the sheath is very like a Mauser bayonet sheath from the late 19th/early 20th century. What period do we believe this is from? I could see Austria/Hungary, even Russia, but my best guess is when rather than where, early 20th century. Last edited by Interested Party; Yesterday at 04:13 PM. Reason: Incomplete thought

Today, 05:28 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,289	To set things straight, a 'kidney dagger' is simply a Victorian term used to detract from the genitally associated 'bollock dagger' term for a dagger form used from 13th-18th c. This little dagger seems more a regalia oriented accoutrement from possibly some fraternal order or group, in the manner of the broader spectrum of Freemasonry et al. The initials with wreath surround seem to reflect this type of neo-classic ornamentation in accord with notes by I.P. I very much agree with European, and the observation on the bayonet scabbard. Attached Images

14th June 2025, 05:44 PM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 622	You have not included a ruler/tape measure. At first I thought such elaborate, delicate detailing might indicate a woman's piece, but it seems it is intended for outer carry (the belt loop) so I don't know. Measurements might help. Fine and fascinating weapon... and very effective.

14th June 2025, 08:39 PM	#3
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 146	Hy, i dont know if that is a belt loop, it is small, around 14-15 cm in total lenght with scabbard, and that metal loop is small, if it is for a belt, then a small one, thats why i thougt it is maybe childs? Im on the go, so i cant take photo, but i mesured the dagger before it is between 14-15 cm. Maybe it is womans dagger, or childs? It reminded me on a kidney dagger, a gamblers or prostitutes dagger, but monograms, it leans more toward something a military face child would have, maybe from Austro-Hungary, or Croatia?