Koummya vs Khanjar: Name Game? Maybe Not

[gp]

Waelty:

https://www.armes-anciennes-du-maroc...arade.website/

when clicking on enchantillon de lecture (scroll down), you get access to the details

[Jim McDougall]

This is truly a fascinating discussion Rob and thank you for opening it. I think you bring out most salient points, however I cannot add much to what you have already noted as far as this specific case. What I can say though is that there is some importance in awareness of these kinds of variables.

As a veteran of countless 'name game' frays here over the past 25+ years, I can wholeheartedly agree with Ian, in most cases this often seemingly specious exercise simply leads to unfortunate disagreements where really, nobody is wrong, nor right. There are so many variables, mistranslations, etc. that it becomes the conundrum syndrome to the Nth degree.

That does not eliminate however, the need to be aware of the glossary of terms which circulate, and record and reference the variations with cross references for the sake of semantics. In researching weapons, the search through accounts, narratives and the like might use a certain perhaps local term for a form, and without knowledge of the variant terms, important details might be lost.

The anecdotal evidence of these situations could fill at least one book, but if I may note one:
Years ago I tried to discover the source of the term 'KASKARA' for the Sudanese broadswords. Many years of searching, even through reaching out to authorities such as authors, museums even the University of Khartoum, yielded no results. I was stunned that despite awareness of these ubiquitous swords, nobody bothered to consider this! and most simply shrugged off the thought of the etymology of the word.

I knew the first known use of the word was in Burton (1884) but contrary to his copious footnotes and accuracy, PLUS being a linguist, he noted nothing.
I actually spoke to various tribal people from Sudan, showing them photos, none had EVER heard the word kaskara. They invariably called it sa'if, with the exception of one who called it 'cross'.

Reed (1985) used the term sa'if kasallawi (the location then of most production of these)as the widely used contemporary reference. It was not until Iain Norman, researching Saharan tribal languages, found the loan word that had presented the term kaskara into the collectors lexicon for Sudan.

What these discussions do, for those of us who wish to go deeper into the study of the cultures and history surrounding these ethnographic weapons, is present unmatched perspectives into our understanding of these areas.
I think the most important takeaway here is awareness, and use of cross referencing in our study on these weapon forms.

[Ian]

gp,

Thanks for posting access to this excellent thesis. It is very well illustrated and the French is fairly easy to navigate, even for someone with a few years of secondary school instruction in the language.

Rob, having read the Waelter reference provided by gp, I can see why you have come to the opinion that you have expressed so well here. Jim's comments are also well placed in this context. I feel much better informed about the koummya for having read the material presented here. For anyone wishing to understand the history and details of Moroccan weapons, I recommend Waelter as a good read.

[RobT]

Hi All,

I just translated the part in the Waelty sample that has to do with koummya and khanjar. He also has a sample that deals with firearms and I wonder if he has anything on swords in the complete book. In any event, it would be really good to have an English version of the book.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Ian]

Rob,

Attached is the Table of Contents for the Waelty book. As shown, it includes discussion of the Firearms of Morocco, plus Sabers (nimcha), and "Other Arms." Quite a comprehensive coverage. The link provided by gp allows reading of the whole book online, and also the ability to print it out. Unfortunately, I could not find a way to download a PDF copy of the whole book.

Ian.
.

[RobT]

Ian,

I clicked on the link gp provided. As far as I can see, it doesn’t give the entire book of 185 pages. Clicking on Echantilon de lecture only gives 39 pages (which makes sense because echantillon means sample in French). This is the sample I downloaded for this post. Since there is a “Contact” tab, I sent another email asking about the possibility of an English version but because my first email asking about this went unanswered, I’m not holding my breath about this one.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Ian]

Rob, you are correct. It is just a sample. I had scrolled to the end of the online link and found page 184, thinking that it was the whole book! But unfortunately it's just selections from throughout the book, as you note.

[corrado26]

I contacted the author yesterday, bought the book and had no difficulties to get an answer. Mr. Wälty speaks French and German