Koummya vs Khanjar: Name Game? Maybe Not

Ian · 9th May 2025, 12:14 PM

Stu,

I deliberately left the jambiya out of discussion so as not to further confuse the issue. Yes, this is another term used to describe a double-edged, curved dagger of the same general form as the khanjar and koummya.

Rob,

I understand where you are coming from. The two sources that you quote are of the opinion that the koummya is a different dagger than a khanjar. I respect their arguments but don't necessarily agree. The koummya is double-edged along the distal third or half of the blade and has two "ricassos" of different length. These features are structurally different from most daggers described as khanjars. However, for me, these are regional differences in style rather than a fundamentally different blade. That the locals gave it a different name is important culturally, but to me it is a khanjar variant. I do use the culturally appropriate term in writing about the Moroccan knife because that is how it has come to be called, and being a localised variant I think the local name is appropriate.

I don't think there is a right or wrong way to look at the distinction between koumyya and khanjar. We collectors are always trying to classify and catalogue our items more precisely, when sometimes that's not particularly relevant. I'm not saying that is what's happening here, but often the "name game" leads nowhere.

RobT · 9th May 2025, 04:16 PM

an,

Please allow me this last statement because I think that, if Waelty and Buttin are correct, the distinction between the koummya and the khanjar in Morocco is important as it helps to explain why some more recently made daggers we call koummya bear Moroccan khanjar features. Most notably, these hybrid (per Waelty) or mixed (per Buttin) koummya show small to nonexistent quillons which are unsuited for the thrusting capabiity of the koummya blade but are perfectly fine for the hooking function of the Moroccan khanjar blade. The time frame for the first appearance of these hybrids coincides with the period that their actual use as weapons was becoming unlikely. Thus, those who preferred the look of the Moroccan khanjar hilt could make that choice (anyway, there is nothing to prevent a koummya blade from being used in a hooking manner). I would not discount this aesthetic choice (especially when it is backed by culture and tradition). For my part, although I have had many opportunities to purchase koummya with Moroccan khanjar style hilts, I have not had the slightest inclination to do so because I much prefer the traditional koummya hilt with its slender grip flanked by its flared pommel and quillons.
There is one other brief point I would like to make regarding the origin of this particular name game which, AFAIK, originated after reports from forum members to the effect of, “nobody in Morocco calls them koummya anymore”. I am partial to, and have a small number of stockman folding knives. I am willing to bet the ranch that, if I showed 100 New Yorkers an example of this type knife, not one of them would call it a stockman but I suspect that, if I did the same thing to 100 people in rural Montana, the results would be far different. So, do we know how large a sample of the Moroccan population these forum members asked and, just as importantly, where was the question asked? Was it urban or rural, north (khanjar country) or south (koummya country)?

Sincerely,
RobT

gp · 21st May 2025, 11:18 PM

Waelty:

https://www.armes-anciennes-du-maroc...arade.website/

when clicking on enchantillon de lecture (scroll down), you get access to the details

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2025, 03:11 PM

This is truly a fascinating discussion Rob and thank you for opening it. I think you bring out most salient points, however I cannot add much to what you have already noted as far as this specific case. What I can say though is that there is some importance in awareness of these kinds of variables.

As a veteran of countless 'name game' frays here over the past 25+ years, I can wholeheartedly agree with Ian, in most cases this often seemingly specious exercise simply leads to unfortunate disagreements where really, nobody is wrong, nor right. There are so many variables, mistranslations, etc. that it becomes the conundrum syndrome to the Nth degree.

That does not eliminate however, the need to be aware of the glossary of terms which circulate, and record and reference the variations with cross references for the sake of semantics. In researching weapons, the search through accounts, narratives and the like might use a certain perhaps local term for a form, and without knowledge of the variant terms, important details might be lost.

The anecdotal evidence of these situations could fill at least one book, but if I may note one:
Years ago I tried to discover the source of the term 'KASKARA' for the Sudanese broadswords. Many years of searching, even through reaching out to authorities such as authors, museums even the University of Khartoum, yielded no results. I was stunned that despite awareness of these ubiquitous swords, nobody bothered to consider this! and most simply shrugged off the thought of the etymology of the word.

I knew the first known use of the word was in Burton (1884) but contrary to his copious footnotes and accuracy, PLUS being a linguist, he noted nothing.
I actually spoke to various tribal people from Sudan, showing them photos, none had EVER heard the word kaskara. They invariably called it sa'if, with the exception of one who called it 'cross'.

Reed (1985) used the term sa'if kasallawi (the location then of most production of these)as the widely used contemporary reference. It was not until Iain Norman, researching Saharan tribal languages, found the loan word that had presented the term kaskara into the collectors lexicon for Sudan.

What these discussions do, for those of us who wish to go deeper into the study of the cultures and history surrounding these ethnographic weapons, is present unmatched perspectives into our understanding of these areas.
I think the most important takeaway here is awareness, and use of cross referencing in our study on these weapon forms.

Ian · 22nd May 2025, 11:41 PM

gp,

Thanks for posting access to this excellent thesis. It is very well illustrated and the French is fairly easy to navigate, even for someone with a few years of secondary school instruction in the language.

Rob, having read the Waelter reference provided by gp, I can see why you have come to the opinion that you have expressed so well here. Jim's comments are also well placed in this context. I feel much better informed about the koummya for having read the material presented here. For anyone wishing to understand the history and details of Moroccan weapons, I recommend Waelter as a good read.

RobT · 24th May 2025, 12:04 AM

Hi All,

I just translated the part in the Waelty sample that has to do with koummya and khanjar. He also has a sample that deals with firearms and I wonder if he has anything on swords in the complete book. In any event, it would be really good to have an English version of the book.

Sincerely,
RobT

Ian · 24th May 2025, 07:04 AM

Rob,

Attached is the Table of Contents for the Waelty book. As shown, it includes discussion of the Firearms of Morocco, plus Sabers (nimcha), and "Other Arms." Quite a comprehensive coverage. The link provided by gp allows reading of the whole book online, and also the ability to print it out. Unfortunately, I could not find a way to download a PDF copy of the whole book.

Ian.
.

RobT · 25th May 2025, 12:44 AM

Ian,

I clicked on the link gp provided. As far as I can see, it doesn’t give the entire book of 185 pages. Clicking on Echantilon de lecture only gives 39 pages (which makes sense because echantillon means sample in French). This is the sample I downloaded for this post. Since there is a “Contact” tab, I sent another email asking about the possibility of an English version but because my first email asking about this went unanswered, I’m not holding my breath about this one.

Sincerely,
RobT

9th May 2025, 04:16 PM	#2
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 548	One Last Comment an, Please allow me this last statement because I think that, if Waelty and Buttin are correct, the distinction between the koummya and the khanjar in Morocco is important as it helps to explain why some more recently made daggers we call koummya bear Moroccan khanjar features. Most notably, these hybrid (per Waelty) or mixed (per Buttin) koummya show small to nonexistent quillons which are unsuited for the thrusting capabiity of the koummya blade but are perfectly fine for the hooking function of the Moroccan khanjar blade. The time frame for the first appearance of these hybrids coincides with the period that their actual use as weapons was becoming unlikely. Thus, those who preferred the look of the Moroccan khanjar hilt could make that choice (anyway, there is nothing to prevent a koummya blade from being used in a hooking manner). I would not discount this aesthetic choice (especially when it is backed by culture and tradition). For my part, although I have had many opportunities to purchase koummya with Moroccan khanjar style hilts, I have not had the slightest inclination to do so because I much prefer the traditional koummya hilt with its slender grip flanked by its flared pommel and quillons. There is one other brief point I would like to make regarding the origin of this particular name game which, AFAIK, originated after reports from forum members to the effect of, “nobody in Morocco calls them koummya anymore”. I am partial to, and have a small number of stockman folding knives. I am willing to bet the ranch that, if I showed 100 New Yorkers an example of this type knife, not one of them would call it a stockman but I suspect that, if I did the same thing to 100 people in rural Montana, the results would be far different. So, do we know how large a sample of the Moroccan population these forum members asked and, just as importantly, where was the question asked? Was it urban or rural, north (khanjar country) or south (koummya country)? Sincerely, RobT Last edited by RobT; 9th May 2025 at 04:20 PM. Reason: grammar and new info

22nd May 2025, 03:11 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This is truly a fascinating discussion Rob and thank you for opening it. I think you bring out most salient points, however I cannot add much to what you have already noted as far as this specific case. What I can say though is that there is some importance in awareness of these kinds of variables. As a veteran of countless 'name game' frays here over the past 25+ years, I can wholeheartedly agree with Ian, in most cases this often seemingly specious exercise simply leads to unfortunate disagreements where really, nobody is wrong, nor right. There are so many variables, mistranslations, etc. that it becomes the conundrum syndrome to the Nth degree. That does not eliminate however, the need to be aware of the glossary of terms which circulate, and record and reference the variations with cross references for the sake of semantics. In researching weapons, the search through accounts, narratives and the like might use a certain perhaps local term for a form, and without knowledge of the variant terms, important details might be lost. The anecdotal evidence of these situations could fill at least one book, but if I may note one: Years ago I tried to discover the source of the term 'KASKARA' for the Sudanese broadswords. Many years of searching, even through reaching out to authorities such as authors, museums even the University of Khartoum, yielded no results. I was stunned that despite awareness of these ubiquitous swords, nobody bothered to consider this! and most simply shrugged off the thought of the etymology of the word. I knew the first known use of the word was in Burton (1884) but contrary to his copious footnotes and accuracy, PLUS being a linguist, he noted nothing. I actually spoke to various tribal people from Sudan, showing them photos, none had EVER heard the word kaskara. They invariably called it sa'if, with the exception of one who called it 'cross'. Reed (1985) used the term sa'if kasallawi (the location then of most production of these)as the widely used contemporary reference. It was not until Iain Norman, researching Saharan tribal languages, found the loan word that had presented the term kaskara into the collectors lexicon for Sudan. What these discussions do, for those of us who wish to go deeper into the study of the cultures and history surrounding these ethnographic weapons, is present unmatched perspectives into our understanding of these areas. I think the most important takeaway here is awareness, and use of cross referencing in our study on these weapon forms. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd May 2025 at 03:36 PM.

24th May 2025, 12:04 AM	#6
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 548	We Need an English Version Hi All, I just translated the part in the Waelty sample that has to do with koummya and khanjar. He also has a sample that deals with firearms and I wonder if he has anything on swords in the complete book. In any event, it would be really good to have an English version of the book. Sincerely, RobT

24th May 2025, 07:04 AM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	Rob, Attached is the Table of Contents for the Waelty book. As shown, it includes discussion of the Firearms of Morocco, plus Sabers (nimcha), and "Other Arms." Quite a comprehensive coverage. The link provided by gp allows reading of the whole book online, and also the ability to print it out. Unfortunately, I could not find a way to download a PDF copy of the whole book. Ian. . Attached Images

25th May 2025, 12:44 AM	#8
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 548	Not the Whole Thing Ian, I clicked on the link gp provided. As far as I can see, it doesn’t give the entire book of 185 pages. Clicking on Echantilon de lecture only gives 39 pages (which makes sense because echantillon means sample in French). This is the sample I downloaded for this post. Since there is a “Contact” tab, I sent another email asking about the possibility of an English version but because my first email asking about this went unanswered, I’m not holding my breath about this one. Sincerely, RobT

9th May 2025, 12:14 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	Stu, I deliberately left the jambiya out of discussion so as not to further confuse the issue. Yes, this is another term used to describe a double-edged, curved dagger of the same general form as the khanjar and koummya. Rob, I understand where you are coming from. The two sources that you quote are of the opinion that the koummya is a different dagger than a khanjar. I respect their arguments but don't necessarily agree. The koummya is double-edged along the distal third or half of the blade and has two "ricassos" of different length. These features are structurally different from most daggers described as khanjars. However, for me, these are regional differences in style rather than a fundamentally different blade. That the locals gave it a different name is important culturally, but to me it is a khanjar variant. I do use the culturally appropriate term in writing about the Moroccan knife because that is how it has come to be called, and being a localised variant I think the local name is appropriate. I don't think there is a right or wrong way to look at the distinction between koumyya and khanjar. We collectors are always trying to classify and catalogue our items more precisely, when sometimes that's not particularly relevant. I'm not saying that is what's happening here, but often the "name game" leads nowhere.

21st May 2025, 11:18 PM	#3
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 830	Waelty: https://www.armes-anciennes-du-maroc...arade.website/ when clicking on enchantillon de lecture (scroll down), you get access to the details

22nd May 2025, 11:41 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	gp, Thanks for posting access to this excellent thesis. It is very well illustrated and the French is fairly easy to navigate, even for someone with a few years of secondary school instruction in the language. Rob, having read the Waelter reference provided by gp, I can see why you have come to the opinion that you have expressed so well here. Jim's comments are also well placed in this context. I feel much better informed about the koummya for having read the material presented here. For anyone wishing to understand the history and details of Moroccan weapons, I recommend Waelter as a good read.