Hussar saber, real or not?

serdar · 8th May 2025, 01:50 AM

P

serdar · 9th May 2025, 07:28 PM

So to conclude, after museum expert examined saber, it is genuine, but heavily cleaned and leather repaired and retouched.
So thanx.

Jim McDougall · 10th May 2025, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serdar

So to conclude, after museum expert examined saber, it is genuine, but heavily cleaned and leather repaired and retouched.
So thanx.

As this has been noted to have had the leather restored etc. it seems the rather rough condition of the metal might reflect the results of rough cleaning and sincere efforts at restoring it. There seems to be evidence of genuine age in the inaccessible areas of the metalwork.

I would welcome the observations of the museum authority who examined this sword as in my earlier post I noted I had found the historic importance of this type saber, and it would be good to know the perspective from an expert.

While we typically try to avoid posting and discussing reproduction swords, the case of either or is of course a reasonable approach. As perhaps the case here, there are many cases of examples which might be composite, or those that are badly restored thus damaged. In this case, the only exception to what appears reasonable effort at restoring are the unfortunate markings.
The hard part always remains artificial aging, but in my limited experience that seems to be overall more consistent without incidental flaws.

serdar · 11th May 2025, 07:29 PM

Thank you all!

As i said before im not by any means expert on antique weapons of any sort, i wouldnt claim that never becouse i meet a few very old collectors that local people think about them that they are "experts" but i was disapointed, they know a lot much more then i know, but are far from expert, on the end, nobody knows all, there is allways someone with higher knowledge in particular field.

My field of choice are yatagans swords, ottoman and balkan weapons, and especialy boka kotorska weapons, with little of schiavonesca and schiavona interest.

So hussar sabers to me is like a donkey looking at vermeer, i know when i see old sword, old leather, types, etc. But i dont know what im suposed to look for becouse i never had genuine example in my hands, like most of us here i presume, thats why i asked for opinion and posted, i hope nobody is angry becouse of that.

About this saber, i bought it at auction, on which i saw a few not genuine "polish" sabers that to me are 100% obvious they arent genuine and are put together in 19 st or newer, this one and other one i examined they looked genuine to me, enough to buy them, especialy when i have auction house guarantee if i prove that it isnt i can returne the saber.

Guy at auction house said saber is examined from two experts from their museum.

After i had fiasco with fringia saber and polish saber before, which i took to history museum to guy who is a curator of antique arms and armor/ and restaurator, he confirmed me that they are not genuine but made to scamm people, after which i destroyd them, took them apart, it was painful, to see all epoxy glue inside and new wood, but you learn and pay for your school.

So i took this saber to the same curator, he examined it and concluded, he doesent know the makers mark (aka germ), blade is heavily cleaned but to him a genuine 17 st blade, crossguard cleaned but cooper welded as it should be, we moved a scabbard end mounting a little about half a centimeter and beneth is a rust, old rust, old almost roten wood and leather, same as is on the handle, with my premision he took piece of wood near the tang and light inside it is old wood in acordance with color of saber from 17 st they have in deposit, leather is smeared eith parafin and some thing he didnt know what, mountings on the scabard are cooper soldered, and cleanede, beneth them is a old rust.

He said that to him saber is from 17 st in style, manufacture and age, latest end of 17 begining of 18 st.

So if it is not genuine, then it eas made around thst time, they have fev polish sabers, and karabelas frim that time, and it matches, wood age etc.

I think that it would be imppsible to make and age it in this way, i dont see how that would be posible.

Makers mark is very poorly struck, on other side even more, i never seen it before.

After his examination, fir now i decided to keep it as saber from 17 st with big question mark ?

But there is another thing i dont know about you guys but the feeling, when i was buyng that noblemans polish saber my feeling was off but i bought it, allso with fringia one, but with this one my feeling isnt off, so i think il listen to my feeling this time.
And as i said, guy examined it thouroghly and said there is no chance that someone made this now for scamm, that it is imposible to chemicaly age wood, leather and steel in that way (in steel in pits there is still rust, old rust genuine) and would be expensive several times price i paid for the sword just to produce that, and would show in examination.

Soooo as i said, for now it goes on the wall with big question mark.

P.s.
I forgot to ad, his only concern was a pomel cap, he said it looks like it was made from several pieces like it should be, but he wasnt sure, on the front end it is wear and lines of solder are visible but it is under question mark.

And carry ring wear, it is very small, i would expect more wear on the ring holders, but as i said before, i have several authentic 16, 17, 18 century kilij swords and shamshirs that i know 1 milion percent are authentic, few of them are family heirlom, and they got even smaller wear and tear there, so it is not always a sign of time and authenticity.

serdar · 11th May 2025, 07:40 PM

Sorry for writing mistakes, im on the move, and third language english.

serdar · 11th May 2025, 07:49 PM

As i noticed, there is a lot maybe 80% makers marks and blades unknown i mean italian and styrian, export ones, this and that.

They have karabela in museum that to me looks like tulwar/pulwar blade and it is italian!?

There is a lot to learn.

Il post a karabela later, i bought it on auction before, it should be 17 st, ottoman, but import italian or styer blade, but to me blade is very strange not very good for slicing (meat) more for slicing thru the armour, one guy from my town that has a collection of about 40 karabelas, said it is old blade from end of 16 st begining of 17st and handle and crossguard ottoman 18 st.

Will M · 12th May 2025, 01:29 PM

A very interesting sword that appears authentic. I know little about this type of sword as I mostly collect British. However age and corrosion I am good at determining whether aging is real or intentionally done. This sword appears correct, I am interested in the copper (brazing)? It would take less heat to accomplish the joining of the iron/steel parts. I would say yes that leather and wood can also be aged. Again I find this sword interesting and the only thing that has prevented me from acquiring one is my lack of knowledge in this area since there are convincing copies and photos alone I cannot determine authenticity.

8th May 2025, 01:50 AM	#1
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 139	P P Attached Images

11th May 2025, 07:29 PM	#4
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 139	Thank you all! As i said before im not by any means expert on antique weapons of any sort, i wouldnt claim that never becouse i meet a few very old collectors that local people think about them that they are "experts" but i was disapointed, they know a lot much more then i know, but are far from expert, on the end, nobody knows all, there is allways someone with higher knowledge in particular field. My field of choice are yatagans swords, ottoman and balkan weapons, and especialy boka kotorska weapons, with little of schiavonesca and schiavona interest. So hussar sabers to me is like a donkey looking at vermeer, i know when i see old sword, old leather, types, etc. But i dont know what im suposed to look for becouse i never had genuine example in my hands, like most of us here i presume, thats why i asked for opinion and posted, i hope nobody is angry becouse of that. About this saber, i bought it at auction, on which i saw a few not genuine "polish" sabers that to me are 100% obvious they arent genuine and are put together in 19 st or newer, this one and other one i examined they looked genuine to me, enough to buy them, especialy when i have auction house guarantee if i prove that it isnt i can returne the saber. Guy at auction house said saber is examined from two experts from their museum. After i had fiasco with fringia saber and polish saber before, which i took to history museum to guy who is a curator of antique arms and armor/ and restaurator, he confirmed me that they are not genuine but made to scamm people, after which i destroyd them, took them apart, it was painful, to see all epoxy glue inside and new wood, but you learn and pay for your school. So i took this saber to the same curator, he examined it and concluded, he doesent know the makers mark (aka germ), blade is heavily cleaned but to him a genuine 17 st blade, crossguard cleaned but cooper welded as it should be, we moved a scabbard end mounting a little about half a centimeter and beneth is a rust, old rust, old almost roten wood and leather, same as is on the handle, with my premision he took piece of wood near the tang and light inside it is old wood in acordance with color of saber from 17 st they have in deposit, leather is smeared eith parafin and some thing he didnt know what, mountings on the scabard are cooper soldered, and cleanede, beneth them is a old rust. He said that to him saber is from 17 st in style, manufacture and age, latest end of 17 begining of 18 st. So if it is not genuine, then it eas made around thst time, they have fev polish sabers, and karabelas frim that time, and it matches, wood age etc. I think that it would be imppsible to make and age it in this way, i dont see how that would be posible. Makers mark is very poorly struck, on other side even more, i never seen it before. After his examination, fir now i decided to keep it as saber from 17 st with big question mark ? But there is another thing i dont know about you guys but the feeling, when i was buyng that noblemans polish saber my feeling was off but i bought it, allso with fringia one, but with this one my feeling isnt off, so i think il listen to my feeling this time. And as i said, guy examined it thouroghly and said there is no chance that someone made this now for scamm, that it is imposible to chemicaly age wood, leather and steel in that way (in steel in pits there is still rust, old rust genuine) and would be expensive several times price i paid for the sword just to produce that, and would show in examination. Soooo as i said, for now it goes on the wall with big question mark. P.s. I forgot to ad, his only concern was a pomel cap, he said it looks like it was made from several pieces like it should be, but he wasnt sure, on the front end it is wear and lines of solder are visible but it is under question mark. And carry ring wear, it is very small, i would expect more wear on the ring holders, but as i said before, i have several authentic 16, 17, 18 century kilij swords and shamshirs that i know 1 milion percent are authentic, few of them are family heirlom, and they got even smaller wear and tear there, so it is not always a sign of time and authenticity. Last edited by serdar; 11th May 2025 at 07:59 PM.

9th May 2025, 07:28 PM	#2
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 139	So to conclude, after museum expert examined saber, it is genuine, but heavily cleaned and leather repaired and retouched. So thanx.

11th May 2025, 07:40 PM	#5
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 139	Sorry for writing mistakes, im on the move, and third language english.

11th May 2025, 07:49 PM	#6
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 139	As i noticed, there is a lot maybe 80% makers marks and blades unknown i mean italian and styrian, export ones, this and that. They have karabela in museum that to me looks like tulwar/pulwar blade and it is italian!? There is a lot to learn. Il post a karabela later, i bought it on auction before, it should be 17 st, ottoman, but import italian or styer blade, but to me blade is very strange not very good for slicing (meat) more for slicing thru the armour, one guy from my town that has a collection of about 40 karabelas, said it is old blade from end of 16 st begining of 17st and handle and crossguard ottoman 18 st.

12th May 2025, 01:29 PM	#7
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	A very interesting sword that appears authentic. I know little about this type of sword as I mostly collect British. However age and corrosion I am good at determining whether aging is real or intentionally done. This sword appears correct, I am interested in the copper (brazing)? It would take less heat to accomplish the joining of the iron/steel parts. I would say yes that leather and wood can also be aged. Again I find this sword interesting and the only thing that has prevented me from acquiring one is my lack of knowledge in this area since there are convincing copies and photos alone I cannot determine authenticity.